Islam as a religion or complete way of life

[Baygham]

Absolutly true.Poora pa poora da sera melgarey yema.Yara da oovaya chey khlasegoo ba tre seenga.

Batoor wrora,
khlasay tha aasan hum dhey aw garran hum.
For an individual it is not difficult, you can make yourself see all the inconsistencies and horrible stuff and realize that this sh*t is not working. however the problem arises when you try to live with that. First you need alternative ideology inside your head, not some new age mumbo jumbo, but something relavent to us, that can lead to our prosperity and development.

Now for the massess its a all new ball game. But a few tried and tested things can sure bring some much needed changes.

[Batoor]

Batoor wrora,
khlasay tha aasan hum dhey aw garran hum.
For an individual it is not difficult, you can make yourself see all the inconsistencies and horrible stuff and realize that this sh*t is not working. however the problem arises when you try to live with that. First you need alternative ideology inside your head, not some new age mumbo jumbo, but something relavent to us, that can lead to our prosperity and development.

Now for the massess its a all new ball game. But a few tried and tested things can sure bring some much needed changes.

Many friends of mine have got rid of this dogma and living very good lives but you know what Beghem.Pashoon,s society do,t accept them and they do,t bother either.It is possible and workable as for as individual is concerned but we need some collective efforts .

[Lakiwal]

Many friends of mine have got rid of this dogma and living very good lives

they r leading what type of lives, good lives?
do u meant baydeen life?

[Batoor]

they r leading what type of lives, good lives?
do u meant baydeen life?

What do you mean by beydeen,kherdeen,Ghuldeen,shadeen,sadeen
By good life I mean they are very much satisfied with their lives,independent of your self created baseless stories.They chosen their alternative idealogy and people like you do,t have the gut to even think that way.They do,t do any harm to humanity,Never have and never will.
Lakiwala,Afterall it s your satisfaction which matters.You Islams and by that token all religions have done no good to humanity.Death to all religions.
This world would have been a much betters palce with out religion,Ashna.Religion brought destrucation and devastation to this beautiful world.I hate all religions equally.Da yao khra ghwagoona dee.

[Pir_Rokhan]

Baygham sb

What you are suggesting is neither an alternative nor a politically viable approach.

For poor and deprived people like us a sudden jump from our 1000 years old religion which has even become a part and parcel of our Pakhtun culture is not possible. Secondly this type of change of religion is effective in liberal and modern societies like that of US and Europe. I think you have forgotten your land, its people and their limitations.

Our people consider it a luxury to go to a school even to study the crap which is embodied in Pakistan studies and Islamiyat.And now even that luxury is no more there. They just want to survive from the atrocities of Paki army on one side and the Taliban on another. They don’t have light to study individually. They can’t afford a god damned book and even some time to sit with some learned man to learn through conversation because they in their childhood have to do labour to earn a bread for their family. Ignoring all these bitter realities you are talking like " Yaw da lugay mree bal ye sar ta paratay goree".

If I were in place of Asfandyar or any other leader with some power I would have even gone to kaaba and would have even taught the same bloody wahabi version to the Bedouins to grab money for my poor people ,I would have used all the weaknesses of these bloody sobs in Pakistan and outside to give a sigh of relief to my poor people.

How politically unwise is the fact that instead of using the fact that Pakhtuns are Muslims, that too Sunnis across the Durand line, that too with the same language, that from the same race and still they don’t find a leader who could advocate their case to the world to win a better life for them.

We have already seen Jinnah who dint know may be the very Kalima of Islam advocating for a people that too on religious grounds , got a country (rightly or wrongly) for them.

Look at Punjabis. Their nation is half non Muslim.They are in different countries.They have different cultures now.They have a dark history.They have been all agrarian people etc.But they have progressed and now have a an army and a county of their own that too with nuclear teeth after just 63 years..

My point is that this is not the time to talk about metaphysical thoughts and abstract philosophies, rather we need to fight our case in the world community to win freedom and merge with our homeland Afghanistan and stabilise it and come at par with the rest of the world and win a happy and respectable living for our people.

[Lakiwal]

What do you mean by beydeen,kherdeen,Ghuldeen,shadeen,sadeen
By good life I mean they are very much satisfied with their lives,independent of your self created baseless stories.They chosen their alternative ...

religions r meant to guide u ,how to lead civilizd life. moral values, happines, satisfaction and sociality is high in people who r leading their lives acording to islam.

[Lakiwal]

i pity those who do not believe in religons for instance communists , who r living a life without sociality and r just like animals only eat, breed and do shitt. they have no purpose of life, just live like cows, dogs and pigs because these animals also hav one business, eat, breed and do shitt.

[Baygham]

Baygham sb

What you are suggesting is neither an alternative nor a politically viable approach.

For poor and deprived people like us a sudden jump from our 1000 years old religion which has even become a part and parcel of our Pakhtun culture is not possible. Secondly this type of change of religion is effective in liberal and modern societies like that of US and Europe. I think you have forgotten your land, its people and their limitations.

Our people consider it a luxury to go to a school even to study the crap which is embodied in Pakistan studies and Islamiyat.And now even that luxury is no more there. They just want to survive from the atrocities of Paki army on one side and the Taliban on another. They don’t have light to study individually. They can’t afford a god damned book and even some time to sit with some learned man to learn through conversation because they in their childhood have to do labour to earn a bread for their family. Ignoring all these bitter realities you are talking like " Yaw da lugay mree bal ye sar ta paratay goree".

If I were in place of Asfandyar or any other leader with some power I would have even gone to kaaba and would have even taught the same bloody wahabi version to the Bedouins to grab money for my poor people ,I would have used all the weaknesses of these bloody sobs in Pakistan and outside to give a sigh of relief to my poor people.

How politically unwise is the fact that instead of using the fact that Pakhtuns are Muslims, that too Sunnis across the Durand line, that too with the same language, that from the same race and still they don’t find a leader who could advocate their case to the world to win a better life for them.

We have already seen Jinnah who dint know may be the very Kalima of Islam advocating for a people that too on religious grounds , got a country (rightly or wrongly) for them.

Look at Punjabis. Their nation is half non Muslim.They are in different countries.They have different cultures now.They have a dark history.They have been all agrarian people etc.But they have progressed and now have a an army and a county of their own that too with nuclear teeth after just 63 years..

My point is that this is not the time to talk about metaphysical thoughts and abstract philosophies, rather we need to fight our case in the world community to win freedom and merge with our homeland Afghanistan and stabilise it and come at par with the rest of the world and win a happy and respectable living for our people.

Nobody is advocating to make atheism mandatory, but a certain tolerance of the heretic can not only be taught but is mandatory for any kind of progress. You dont need every one to be an atheist, such a society will not last 2 minutes. But tolerance of the heretic is required and without it all the wahabi money in the world cant buy you any progress. And this is exactly the time to talk about it, another chance may not come our way for another 100 years.

And as far as punjabi progress is concerned. I dont want such progress that requires the exploitation of other human beings while keeping a severe internal conflict of identity vis a vis another Punjabi. The psychological strive of a Sikh and musalman Punjabi mixing together does not bother me

And as far as asfandyar going to kaaba, well he did get 32 mill from the wahabis for the swat mulla deal and what did that get us.

A lot of peaple confuse the deep religious flavor of our society with some devine priveldge. In reality it is deep fear. What keeps a girl from having an affair is not devine locks on her chastity but the fear of death. The heretic keeps a low voice for the same reason. The mother keeps praying as she has lost other children to simple diarrhea, only decades of good solid medicine will relieve her memory of fear. The farmer, the driver, the father, brother, everyone lives with that fear and fear alone. Take the fear out and it wont last a minute.

[Pir_Rokhan]

1) Nobody is advocating to make atheism mandatory, but a certain tolerance of the heretic can not only be taught but is mandatory for any kind of progress. You dont need every one to be an atheist, such a society will not last 2 minutes. But tolerance of the heretic is required and without it all the wahabi money in the world cant buy you any progress.

2) And this is exactly the time to talk about it, another chance may not come our way for another 100 years.

3) And as far as punjabi progress is concerned. I dont want such progress that requires the exploitation of other human beings while keeping a severe internal conflict of identity vis a vis another Punjabi. The psychological strive of a Sikh and musalman Punjabi mixing together does not bother me.

4) And as far as asfandyar going to kaaba, well he did get 32 mill from the wahabis for the swat mulla deal and what did that get us.

5) A lot of peaple confuse the deep religious flavor of our society with some devine priveldge. In reality it is deep fear. What keeps a girl from having an affair is not devine locks on her chastity but the fear of death. The heretic keeps a low voice for the same reason. The mother keeps praying as she has lost other children to simple diarrhea, only decades of good solid medicine will relieve her memory of fear. The farmer, the driver, the father, brother, everyone lives with that fear and fear alone. Take the fear out and it wont last a minute.

1) This is a known fact that tolerance, secularism, democracy and humanism are all the products of technological evolution. Any underdeveloped society has to take the help of metaphysical ideas which exist in the form of religion in an organised form. Your point is asking for the fruits of a change and not asking for the change itself. It is like asking a matriculate to appreciate the research of a doctor in Philosophy.

2) No particular instance of time can convert wishful thinking into a reality. It is the stage of technological evolution which determines the circumstances required for a change in a society. The summary is bringing a change in the technological conditions of a society and you will see the required change in the behaviour of people because technology creates its own values. We are just suffering from the value system of agrarian cum medieval age both of which had their own value systems viz feudalism and sectarianism (or call it religious chauvinism)

3) The progress at the cost of exploitation is condemnable but the deprivation due to laziness and lamenting nature is more condemable.If a villager from Jhelum can become a Nobel laureate why cant a educated well off Pakhtun from Peshawar achieve the same ? Pakhtuns are deprived of resources and facilities no doubt but the resourceful have also done nothing great except opting to escape from the bitter realities of their homeland and preferring an individualistic life. They have ego powerful enough to give the heed of a deaf ear to the genuine problems of their own nation due to which they excelled individually and on the contrary possess a conversant and big mouth to their own motheland which depicts a picture of miseries and deprivation.

4) This is for ANP to answer.

5) I totally disagree baygham sb.You are just obssessed with religeon.I am dead sure that deep religeous flavour of our society is due to backwardness not due to fear.The psyche of Pakhtuns and even that of Pakhtun women cant simply take fear.The backwardness in turn is due to:

( a ) Lack of Political Consciosness ( b ) Lack of Scientific Knowledge

Poeple sanctify clergy and religeon as they dont know the real motives behind these institutions and how they have been the instruments of exploitation and disinformation.For example the progeny of Kakasahib still distributes on weekly basis the booty /tax which is begged from the visitors of the tomb who visit to tomb to pray for their ridiculous desires.

The same is true about a lot of superstitions which are prevalent in our society due to lack of scientific knowledge.Even the class system prevalent is Pakhtun society is due to the above cited reasons.