Qur'an vs Science [Archive] - Global Hujra: A Pakhtun Cyber Land

Ludin

11-06-2008, 07:10 PM

TITLE : THE QUR’AAN AND MODERN SCIENCE : COMPATIBLE OR INCOMPATIBLE?
AUTHOR : Dr. ZAKIR NAIK

TABLE OF CONTENTS
1. Introduction
2. The Challenge of the Qur’an
3. Astronomy
4. Physics
5. Geography
6. Geology
7. Oceanology
8. Biology
9. Botany
10. Zoology
11. Medicine
12. Physiology
13. Embryology
14. General Science
15. Conclusion

It is truly a miracle that Qur'an give such details about science which people have discovered recently.:clapping:

Download here (http://www.divshare.com/download/5758529-930)

aimal khan

11-10-2008, 03:33 PM

Ludin

11-10-2008, 04:57 PM

aimal khan

11-10-2008, 05:27 PM

Ludin

11-10-2008, 09:10 PM

I dont blame ISALM , muslism must take the initiative .....but Islam must inspire muslims to have scientists too if Quran talks of science , why we only have taliban, terrorists, human right violations, drug smugglers, arab sheikhs with big bellies, monorchs, dictators, army generals ruling countries, and few poets no body else ,,,,
We have scientists, but media doesn't really portray the true side of Islam. All we hear about Islam in media is suicide bombers or violence.

btw The Prophet (SAW) predicted that a time will come when Muslims will bullied around and they would be tossed everywhere like the foam on top of the ocean, not because they will be few in numbers, but they wont be following Islam properly.

Gohar Nangyal

11-11-2008, 04:41 AM

Quran refers to some of the scientific details but what muslims have done and doing? nothing except terrorism and human rights violations ,,is there a single muslim noble prize holder scientist???? no ,,,,in the tiny israel you can find many ,,,,,,,in the middle ages there were few so called muslim scientists but afterwards and today no one..........if Quran talks of science then why we dont have muslim world known scientists,,,,,or just be happy that our work is done by god and we have nothing to do ,,,,,,,,tell me what muslims are doing Quran is basically a guidance book for mankind not a book of science and technology

Z Israel ta laar sha chi nationality der keee

How many muslim scientist were in the past & what morvolous work is done by them?
In Hasum, Al Razee etc do u aware of history? I don't think so............
U r talking about noble prize holder of west specially israel.
telll me who is giving noble prize?
THE JEWS!

can they give it to muslims?

what non sense
Da europe na domra mutasira ye chi khudai di Imaan ta khair ka

yes u r right Qur'an is guidence for the whole mankind.
one can find the solution for every problem in Qur'an.

aimal khan

11-11-2008, 02:12 PM

i dont like this short cut personal attacks of friends here , just they will put a label on you , will talk of you as a person, and will not discuss the subject matter, whats the need of wrtiting stuff like that I should ask for israel natioanlity or I am impressed fom europe, criticize my words, this way I wont feel bad and will learn and we can share things
i know the history very well of the muslim scientists in middle ages, but we have few names nothing else, and that too many centuries back , can u tell me name of any muslim scientist now, if they give noble prozes why we dont have our own muslim noble prizes, how much the arabs are spending on keeping m,any wivesand on their luxuries, do they have any system to encourage muslim scientists, why we dont have our own media to talk of our scientists, always we will blame others, never we will do our own self criticism, are we perfect, the whole fault lies with the west???????????

Zahid Buneray

11-12-2008, 06:08 AM

Ludin

11-12-2008, 11:12 AM

I was once reading "Global Science" editorial that we should avoide giving referneces from science for justifying the teaching of Islam. They said its too danger practice.

"Global Science" is an Urdu monthly run by religious minded scientific people. They were in the view that you cna't rely on what science is saying today will not be changed to its opposite, whereas we are unable to change religious directions.
how will you revert an atheist to Islam? You have to show him miracles in the present day, and Qur'an is the biggest miracles which has been given to mankind by Allah (SWT). You have to show him that Muhammad (SAW) was an illiterate person and he was talking about science, which we discover at present days, 1400 years ago.

Ludin

11-13-2008, 02:00 AM

i know the history very well of the muslim scientists in middle ages, but we have few names nothing else, and that too many centuries backIf you know the history then you will realize that a house cannot stand without its frames.

if they give noble prozes why we dont have our own muslim noble prizes
Most of the people who got noble prizes are living in luxury life. They are living in mansions or their life standards are much higher now. If you want to give a noble peace prize to anyone, then it should be Muhammad (SAW), Abu Bakr (RA), Omar (RA), Uthman (RA), Ali (RA) etc... They spent their whole life helping people. They were the wealthiest people in Mecca and Madina, at the end of their lives, their cloths were so short so that their legs were showing. Not because they didn't want to wear full cloths, but they didn't have money to buy. Their wealth was spent to help the poor. Muhammad (SAW) was the leader of the Muslims, one command and he could have gotten every piece of gold in their region, but no, he gave his money to help other. But one fact is true that the people who give out the Noble Peace prize, they didn't really like the ideology of Islam. Islam goes right against their way of life. Look at the West, trillions of dollars, but not even a 1% goes to the poor.

Another example is our own leader, Fakhr-i-Afghan. Bacha Khan. Is he any less then Gandhi or any other one? There is no justice in the world right now. The West does what it wants and none are brave enough to fight them and get their own rights.

daurangir

11-13-2008, 03:53 AM

Whereas on the one hand it is the weakness of a person's logic to make personal attacks on one who doesn't agree with him/her, on the other hand it is worse to prove Islam by finding science in Quran.

As Zahid Sb rightly said, it is really dangerous to apply Quran to scientific facts and theories. Islam can't be proved by non-sensical miracles. Let the non Muslims not adopt Islam if they want God to temporarily hold the laws of his Work (Universe) just for them to wonder and then accept Islam. There still are wonders and miracles if we look at routine things. Our eyes, our ears, the living things bearing children, the clouds formation and then raining are all miracles. As Saadi said,

Barg i darakhtaan i sabz, dar nazar i hoshyaar

Har varaqey daftarest ma'arifat i Kirdigaar

(In the eyes of a wise person every leaf of the green trees is a library to reach God.)

And God is not just Muslims', so how can we say that a certain miracle was for Islam's sake? May be that miracle was for the sake of Christianity or Hinduism!

daurangir

11-13-2008, 04:21 AM

how will you revert an atheist to Islam? You have to show him miracles in the present day, and Qur'an is the biggest miracles which has been given to mankind by Allah (SWT). You have to show him that Muhammad (SAW) was an illiterate person and he was talking about science, which we discover at present days, 1400 years ago.
They all have read it and even translated it, but still dont believe in it. So the ruse of miracles avail us nothing. And what if I tell you there are miracles in Vedas (Hindu faith books) too?!

So let us follow Quran in toto, and become like men and women signified by Quran, and those who are convinced will definitely come to it. Those who are not convinced will never be convinced even by miracles, as the Makkah pagans who died but never accepted Quran despite these so-called miracles.

dardmand

11-13-2008, 09:21 AM

It is truly a miracle that Qur'an give such details about science which people have discovered recently.:clapping:

Download here (http://www.divshare.com/download/5758529-930)
The interesting thing about science is that it did not develop out of Quran but it is the product of human curiosity and search for knowledge since time immemorial. What use of these coded injunctions of Quran for humanity when we have to carve out science. What logic is this that after a long struggle for scientific development we are able to appreciate some divine coded message of Quran. If we have to appreciate anything at all we must appreciate the human spirit and not some vague and coded message that seeks explanation through the so-called incomplete knowledge of humanity.

Ludin

11-14-2008, 09:59 PM

The interesting thing about science is that it did not develop out of Quran but it is the product of human curiosity and search for knowledge since time immemorial.

Thats the interesting part. Humans develop advanced science after Islam came, and it was the Arabs who brought lots of information to existence. Their inspiration was Qur'an and Islam which in the first verse which was revlead to Muhammad (SAW) was READ. Now coming to Qur'an. The amazing part is that what we are discovering lately is mentioned 1400 years ago by a person who was illiterate. This clearly shows that Qur'an is a piece of work which isn't developed by man. We must start thinking, then who did write the Qur'an?

What use of these coded injunctions of Quran for humanity when we have to carve out science. What logic is this that after a long struggle for scientific development we are able to appreciate some divine coded message of Quran. If we have to appreciate anything at all we must appreciate the human spirit and not some vague and coded message that seeks explanation through the so-called incomplete knowledge of humanity.
Qur'an is not a book of SCIENCE, but its the book of SIGNS. Quote from Dr. Zakir Naik:icon_biggrin:. Qur'an has 6236 verses and only a few of them speak of Science. In my opinion, the science which written in Qur'an is not for discovery, but its to show to some people that Qur'an is not a man made scripture.

Lets look into the way the Allah (SWT) has setup the world for us. In the past, Muslims had much stronger belief in Islam. In modern days, people start doubting Islam and Qur'an. I don't think its a coincidence that the science in Qur'an has been discovered when people start doubting Islam. Allah (SWT) has made it visible that which was revealed 1400 years ago and Qur'an had information which was impossible to have in that time. Which proves the validity of Islam.

And coming to you daurangir lala. You said about Vedas and some of the miracles it had within it. The Vedas, Old Testament and the New Testament have a few scratches of what Allah (SWT) has sent to each nation, by this I mean that 124,000 Prophets have brought words from Allah (SWT) to their people. Right now these scriptures has been so tampered with that it cannot be relied upon. Meanwhile Qur'an has remain in its pure form and untouched by man and Inshallah it will remain untouched. The other scriptures have flaws within their writings, while Qur'an has mentioned stuff which does not have any contradiction with other verses or the Hadith of the Prophet (SAW).

I would like to conclude with a quote from Albert Einstine, Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

Qrratugai

11-14-2008, 11:01 PM

daurangir

11-15-2008, 02:10 AM

Yes Ludin vrora, I agree with you and I love Zakir. Your quote of Einstein is very apt.

But here Qrratogai is asking what a decade ago I was curious to know. So she is still not convinced as dardmand too will not be.

So Qrratogai, the 1st Muslims asked a 1000 of such q's from the prophet and later from Sahabah, as it was their tongue in which explanations were given. No they even didnt understand first such scientific references. And since the non Muslims also didnt understsnd, they didnt ask question regarding such things.

(But I m goin to give detailed explanation to YOU Qrratogai. Right now I m going to Karachi. When I return, I shall do that. Till now bye to U and Ludin dear.:love: )

Ludin

11-15-2008, 03:00 AM

Qrratugai, I'll just leave the explanation to daurangir lala. Once he comes, he will answer your question.:icon_biggrin:

Zahid Buneray

11-15-2008, 03:43 AM

Qur'an is the biggest miracles which has been given to mankind by Allah (SWT).

I can't get this abbreviation.

Ludin

11-15-2008, 11:05 AM

I can't get this abbreviation.
its Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala

dardmand

11-15-2008, 01:01 PM

Humans develop advanced science after Islam came
No. Science was there beofre Islam i.e. in Greek, Babylon and Egypt and even India and China. The Arabs took scientific inquiry and works from the Greek translation and develop them. They did not derive science from Quran.

daurangir

11-15-2008, 01:52 PM

shandana

11-15-2008, 02:38 PM

He means to say there was no ADVANCED science before.
yea good answer
such answers shud be given to such people
ka da tol khalko behais berai maqsad kawo no sa khabara wa
khu daltha khu dee tash behais berai behasi kawee
to question about Islam is not a bad thing but to question after getting answer is sense less
as most of the people do it here

Ludin

11-15-2008, 02:45 PM

No. Science was there beofre Islam i.e. in Greek, Babylon and Egypt and even India and China. The Arabs took scientific inquiry and works from the Greek translation and develop them. They did not derive science from Quran.
Dardmand lala, I know that science was there before Islam. But Islam was the one who brought the most advancements in Astronomy, Chemistry, Mathematics, Medicine, Physics and many more.

Here is a link for what the Arabs brought after Islam. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#Sciences)

daurangir

11-15-2008, 03:01 PM

Actually, Ludina, they were not Arabs but wrote in Arabic. They were mostly Persians, Turks, North Africans and Spanish Muslims.

Qrratugai

11-15-2008, 03:27 PM

I can't get this abbreviation.

SWT = Subhanahu wa ta'aala :) ("He's all Pure and High.")

Oh :D I just saw Ludin wror answered it too. Oh well, I'll keep mine anyway :)

daurangir

11-15-2008, 04:02 PM

SWT = Subhanahu wa ta'aala :) ("He's all Pure and High.")

Oh :D I just saw Ludin wror answered it too. Oh well, I'll keep mine anyway :)

U r slowly and gradually impressing us.:)

Qrratugai

11-15-2008, 04:03 PM

U r slowly and gradually impressing us.:)

Ohh, but I'm not here to impress any of you :knockout:

daurangir

11-15-2008, 04:06 PM

No, u r not doing that but u c any impressive speech does impress.

(Oh, the dakkhana has been vacated a bit, sorry!:knockout: )

dardmand

11-15-2008, 05:13 PM

Dardmand lala, I know that science was there before Islam. But Islam was the one who brought the most advancements in Astronomy, Chemistry, Mathematics, Medicine, Physics and many more.

Here is a link for what the Arabs brought after Islam. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#Sciences)
How ???????????????

dardmand

11-15-2008, 05:14 PM

He means to say there was no ADVANCED science before.
I think you mean modern science.

daurangir

11-15-2008, 05:23 PM

How ???????????????

Dardamand Khana, tah os hagha kaar kho mah kava che:

Nah mani nah mani, totaa raam nah mani

Just one person Ziryab was so versatile in the golden age of Islam. See this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziryab

Ludin

11-15-2008, 06:12 PM

Actually, Ludina, they were not Arabs but wrote in Arabic. They were mostly Persians, Turks, North Africans and Spanish Muslims.
Lala, I am just generalizing at the moment.:icon_biggrin:

How ???????????????
Dardmand lala, here is a link for a small bit of science which was developed under Islamic civilization. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_science)

The 20th and 21st century science is built up the foundings which were made by Muslims. Without this, there wouldn't have been any of the current technology.

daurangir

11-15-2008, 06:22 PM

Lala, I am just generalizing at the moment.:icon_biggrin:

I know, but these guys are allergic to Arabs for God knows what reason. They sometimes seem to me to be assuming as if Puxtoons were living in a remote island with no neighbours, and no knowledge of any other humans. I would have directed u to some of the writings of such self opinionated persons, but am dead tired right now. You can, however, search in the archives if u r interested.

dardmand

11-16-2008, 04:32 AM

daurangir

11-16-2008, 05:40 AM

I am not opposed to the Arab traditions of science. What I tried to implied was that it were the Greek who actually laid the foundation of modern science and philosophy. Until seventeen century science and philosophy were considered synonymous.

Oh really? Who said it were Greeks? If I say it were Mesopotamians, Chinese and Indians, would you be annoyed with me?

I am not against Greeks. in fact I appreciate their efforts too. But for a slight turn of history the Christian Greeks would be Muslims, and the West would not blow their trumpet as the pioneers any more. ( You see the sword was not used against them, till the Turks came on the scene, who carried out slaughters of Greeks.)

Upon what invention do you base Modern Science? And what exactly do u mean by Modern Science?

(Sorry, I asked too many Q's, but this is a dialogue.)

dardmand

11-16-2008, 10:10 AM

Oh really? Who said it were Greeks? If I say it were Mesopotamians, Chinese and Indians, would you be annoyed with me?

I am not against Greeks. in fact I appreciate their efforts too. But for a slight turn of history the Christian Greeks would be Muslims, and the West would not blow their trumpet as the pioneers any more. ( You see the sword was not used against them, till the Turks came on the scene, who carried out slaughters of Greeks.)

Upon what invention do you base Modern Science? And what exactly do u mean by Modern Science?

(Sorry, I asked too many Q's, but this is a dialogue.)
Never afraid of replying to them.:)
I don't really associate science with invention. In that sense human beings have been scientific since very long when they found the use of tools or when they invented the wheel or even longer than that. Science as empiricism is the gift of 20th century. Until 17th century there was no such distinction between science and philosophy. It is the philosophy which the Greek excelled and later generations interpreted and reinterpreted and further polished besides mathematics and other fields of study.

daurangir

11-16-2008, 10:25 AM

Never afraid of replying to them.:)
I don't really associate science with invention. In that sense human beings have been scientific since very long when they found the use of tools or when they invented the wheel or even longer than that. Science as empiricism is the gift of 20th century. Until 17th century there was no such distinction between science and philosophy. It is the philosophy which the Greek excelled and later generations interpreted and reinterpreted and further polished besides mathematics and other fields of study.

But u didnt reply all my q's.

And u spoke of Modern science.

And I beg to disagree with you when u say Greeks excelled in philosophy, and that philosophy is same as science (not exactly ur words, but their meaning!) India and China certainly excelled them.

DawezayMomand

11-16-2008, 11:05 AM

It was only after the invasion of Spain (a non-Muslim) country in the 8th century that the Muslims could develop science and philosophy openly. The Muslims could not dare to organise the study of science and philosophy in the then conservatie Muslim societies. The House of Wisdom or Baitul Hikmat (established in 9th century), which played the most important role in developing science and philosophy among the Muslims, was, in the first place, a library and a translation movement that was entrusted with the task of translating the work of Greek, Indian and Persian scientists like Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle, Hippocrates, Euclid, Plotinus, Galen, Sushruta, Charaka, Aryabhata and Brahmagupta.

daurangir

11-16-2008, 11:13 AM

DawezayMomand

11-16-2008, 11:40 AM

And how much behind in time was that invasion to the coming of Islam?:confused4:
Sorry, didn't get this part. :)

BTW u didnt mention the name of any Persian scientist!:rolleye:
Persia has produced some of the great scientists and philosophers like Al-Faraabi, Geber, Algazel, Avicenna, Tabrizi etc etc. But even the origin of science in Persia could be traced back to Greece. During the Grand Persian Empire, the courts of the emperors, Cyrus, Darius and Xerxes, had Greek scientists and physicians in abundance. Europe's contact with Persia is commonly referred to as "fresh breezes from the west". However, the Iranian racialists and chauvinists believe the contrary.

daurangir

11-16-2008, 12:11 PM

Sorry, didn't get this part. :)

Persia has produced some of the great scientists and philosophers like Al-Faraabi, Geber, Algazel, Avicenna, Tabrizi etc etc. But even the origin of science in Persia could be traced back to Greece. During the Grand Persian Empire, the courts of the emperors, Cyrus, Darius and Xerxes, had Greek scientists and physicians in abundance. Europe's contact with Persia is commonly referred to as "fresh breezes from the west". However, the Iranian racialists and chauvinists believe the contrary.

When Muslims invaded Spain, how old was Islam. And y did u mention this invasion?

You have named only Muslim Persian philosophers. What about Zoroastrian Philosophers?

Look, West is only stressing on this point because they want to prove that only West was the originator of many sciences even in classical times. If Persia could produce her indigenous scientists after Islam, why could it not do the same before Islam?

In fact Anushirwan, or Nowsheravan, the Sasani emperor and his minister Buzurg Mehr were both great philosophers. Babak Khurrami was another one of the sasani era.

Bazgufta was a philosopher in the Kayani period. Kayomars was another one of Kayani period.

This is not to diminish the positions of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle.

Ludin

11-16-2008, 12:30 PM

When Muslims invaded Spain, how old was Islam. And y did u mention this invasion?

You have named only Muslim Persian philosophers. What about Zoroastrian Philosophers?

Look, West is only stressing on this point because they want to prove that only West was the originator of many sciences even in classical times. If Persia could produce her indigenous scientists after Islam, why could it not do the same before Islam?

In fact Anushirwan, or Nowsheravan, the Sasani emperor and his minister Buzurg Mehr were both great philosophers. Babak Khurrami was another one of the sasani era.

Bazgufta was a philosopher in the Kayani period. Kayomars was another one of Kayani period.

This is not to diminish the positions of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle.

lala, right on target, although I don't know many of the names you mentioned.:clapping:

daurangir

11-16-2008, 01:40 PM

You know, I always find it interesting when we talk about science and Quran. I'm glad you guys brought this up because I've had this one question in mind that's been bugging me for some time now.

See, scientists make discoveries some of which are later possibly confirmed with the Quran or some with the Bible. But I wonder how they translated or understood those Quranic verses back when these discoveries weren't yet made. For example, when the Quran mentions the term "sperm," how was it translated and how did we know what it was saying before science understood how a human is created in the womb? And what about orbits and orbitals and whatnot?
I guess what I'm asking is, did Muslim understand any of this stuff when it was first revealed and mentioned in the Quran? Or did they just read it and go, "Hmm... I wonder what that/this means :confused4: Oh well, that's not the point. Let's keep on reading." And now that it's finally understood, we go, "See? It was told to us in the Quran over 1400 years ago. That proves Islam is the Correct Religion."

Does anyone get what I'm asking? 'Cause I really, really wanna know how they understood this stuff back then (whatever has been understood and accepted only some decades or a centuries ago). And I surely hope my question isn't misunderstood but considered and answered (if possible) :)

There are 3 kinds of expressions in Quran, Muqatta'aat, Muhkamat and Mutashaabihaat.

The meanings of muqatta'aat are still unknown to humankind. When i say 'still', it means that the meanings will only gradually unfold themselves to humanity. Examples are 'Alif, laam, meem' etc.

The muhkamaat are the ones which are clear in meanings, like "God is One."

The mutashaabihaat are the ambiguous. As per Quran, none knows their interpretation except Allah and those firmly rooted in knowledge. Examples are those which say, Allah descends.., or mention the face or hand of Allah. In relation to these Ibn 'Abbas said: "I am one of those who are firmly rooted in the knowledge of the Religion." It is well known that Ibn 'Abbas is generally regarded as being foremost among the Companions in the explanation of the meanings of the ayaat of the Qur'an.

So some Muslims, and off course the Prophet Mohammad too, understood the meanings of all expressions (ayaat), but majority of even the early Muslims didnt underastand them. So they just kept reading, as u implied.

Example is the saying of Imam Shafi'i: "I believe in what Allah revealed according to the meaning that Allah willed, and in what the Messenger of Allah conveyed according to the meaning that the Messenger of Allah willed."

About muqata'aat, Abdullah Yusuf Ali says, "Their presence is not inconsistent with the character of the Quran as a 'plain book.' The book of nature is also a plain book., but how few can fully understand it? Everyone can get out of the Quran plain guidence for his life according to his/her capacity for spiritual understanding.as his/her capacity grows, so will his/her understanding grow. The whole book is a record for all time. The meanings will be understood in the fullness of time.. we are asked to draw upon Faith, but we are not asked to do any violence to our reason."

dardmand

11-16-2008, 03:03 PM

And I beg to disagree with you when u say Greeks excelled in philosophy...India and China certainly excelled them.

How...................?

Qrratugai

11-16-2008, 10:25 PM

I am not opposed to the Arab traditions of science. What I tried to implied was that it were the Greek who actually laid the foundation of modern science and philosophy. Until seventeen century science and philosophy were considered synonymous.

I agree. We have Aristotle (father of all life sciences), Democritus, Plato, Socrates (father of "question common beliefs"), Pythagoras, Galen (129 - 200 C.E.), etc. However, these ancient Greeks got mathematics from the Egyptians.
This is NOT to say that these were the best of philosophers/scientists ever; at the same time, we had Indians, Egyptians, Chinese, etc. as well.

@ Daurangir: when you make a general statement such as:
And I beg to disagree with you when u say Greeks excelled in philosophy, and that philosophy is same as science (not exactly ur words, but their meaning!) India and China certainly excelled them. it's important to back it up. This isn't about "agreeing or disagreeing"; it's about what is known to be accurate historically :) So to say someone else excelled at such and such must be backed up with evidence/proof.

Qrratugai

11-16-2008, 10:29 PM

How...................?

LOL! :D Dardmanda, I love how you keep asking "How?" :) That's a very important question that many fail to ask (and/or answer) in order to better understand something that's generally accepted as accurate or factual.

Ludin

11-17-2008, 01:29 AM

brothers and sisters, you guys keep on forgetting that Islam was not available in in the time of Greeks. Before Islam, Arabs were just people who looked after their herds in deserts or waring tribes. When Islam came, then the Arabs (generalizing) started their best invention which is still being used till this day such as a watch or clock. The center for all knowledge was Baghdad. Muslims civilian population had libraries full of books, while the European Kings and Queens had 1 or two sheets of paper (not literally).

Science is just one branch which Islam brought the most advancements to. Look at the economics of that time. People were so rich under the leadership of the Khulafa-e-Rashideen that they couldn't find people on the streets to give their Zakat to. Look at the architecture of that time. You will be amazed at their works, and even the Christians copied their architecture styles. Look at the art of that time, the calligraphy of that time can be seen in the Masjid-e-Qartaba of Spain where the whole Qur'an is written on the walls of the Musjid.

These were not possible before Islam. When Islam came it was compulsory for every man and woman to educate her/herself. Imagine that a person who is not literate himself brought a thing to the world which no one has ever seen, faith, union, globalization, peace, prospirity, justice etc...

Don't judge Islam on what you see today, because it is not being portrayed properly which is almost the opposite of what it is right now. Read and learn Islam then judge it, btw there are so many biased books which are interpreting Qur'an wrong right now (just a piece of advice).

daurangir

11-17-2008, 02:32 AM

@ Daurangir: when you make a general statement such as:.....

it's important to back it up. This isn't about "agreeing or disagreeing"; it's about what is known to be accurate historically :) So to say someone else excelled at such and such must be backed up with evidence/proof.

LOL! :D Dardmanda, I love how you keep asking "How?" :) That's a very important question that many fail to ask (and/or answer) in order to better understand something that's generally accepted as accurate or factual.

Khah saib. The answer will come in a couple of days, as I dont consult net, but my books. Let there be curiosity 1st.

daurangir

11-17-2008, 02:57 AM

However, these ancient Greeks got mathematics from the Egyptians.

The biggest thing is writing itself. It was invented by Sumerians of southern Mesopotamia, in the form of cuneiform syllabic system.

http://www.ancientscripts.com/images/sumerian_tablet.jpg

.................................................. ................................

http://www.ancientscripts.com/images/su_signs.gif

These were logograms which eventually became a syllabogram to represent the sound. Similarly, other logograms also became syllabograms.

http://www.ancientscripts.com/images/su_gu.gif

Another peculiarity of the writing system is polyphony, where many words that have similar meaning but vastly different sounds are written with the same sign.

In addition to use of phonetic signs to spell out new words, new signs were created by adding graphic elements to an existing sign or combining two existing signs.

http://www.ancientscripts.com/images/su_derived.gif

daurangir

11-17-2008, 02:58 AM

As the system grew more complex, it became hard to tell if a sign was being used as a logogram or a syllabogram (or even which one of the potential sound values the syllabogram can have). To help with the ambiguity, several logograms were overloaded to become "determinatives". They would precede or follow a group of signs that make up a word, and gives a hint to meaning of the word by marking the broad category of objects or ideas the word belongs to.
http://www.ancientscripts.com/images/su_det.gif

http://www.ancientscripts.com/images/su_det_phc.gif
.................................................. .........................................

Another interesting fact about Sumerian (and later cuneiform systems as well) is that the numeric system is both decimal (base-10) and sexagesimal (base-60). This means that there are unique symbols for each of the bases, as well as combinations and powers of the bases. So for example, the number nine would be represented by nine copies of the "1" sign, but the number ten would be represented only by the "10" sign. The number sixty would be represented only by the "60" sign, and the number seventy would be the "60" sign followed by the "10" sign.
http://www.ancientscripts.com/images/su_numbers.gif
The sexagesimal part of this system survives in the modern era in units of time (seconds and minutes) and of trigonometry (360 degrees).
Later Mesopotamian people (Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians, etc) adopted this system but modified it so that it became positional (like ours). This reduced the system to only two symbols (the "1" and "10" signs) and the position a sign occur within a number changes its quanity, just like "1" in the number "100" is different from the "1" in the number "10,000" in our modern system. .................................................. .................................................. ...

Sumerian was used continually until the 1st century CE, making it one of the longest used writing system in history.

dardmand

11-17-2008, 12:55 PM

Very good. It was this background in mind when Thales and the Milesian School produced large scale theories about the world.

dardmand

11-17-2008, 12:57 PM

LOL! :D Dardmanda, I love how you keep asking "How?" :) That's a very important question that many fail to ask (and/or answer) in order to better understand something that's generally accepted as accurate or factual.
Manana! It is actually enlightened people like you who understand the real meaning of "how".:)

dardmand

11-17-2008, 01:06 PM

Admin khan mama hagha sakraan os rapregda.

DawezayMomand

11-18-2008, 11:34 AM

When Muslims invaded Spain, how old was Islam. And y did u mention this invasion?
I don't know what is the relevance of 'how old was Islam' to all this?! Anyway, I mentioned this invasion as because of this invasion a new vista was opened for the Muslims. What they couldn't try in their own lands was tried in Spain.

You have named only Muslim Persian philosophers. What about Zoroastrian Philosophers?
I mentioned only (Shia) Muslim Persians but at the same time I did make a reference to the Persian (Kafir) scientists before Islam. My point was that Islam as such had nothing to do with science and philisophy in Persia.

Look, West is only stressing on this point because they want to prove that only West was the originator of many sciences even in classical times.
In fact it is the (Kafir) West who are writing about the scientists of regions other than the West itself. I have watched some wonderful documentaries about Muslim scientists on BBC and Channel 5 and unfortunately not on Algazeera and PTV. But we have to admit that the Greeks did wonderfully well in all fields of knowledge and science and gave the rest of the world a base on which the latter could develop further.

If Persia could produce her indigenous scientists after Islam, why could it not do the same before Islam?
Persian did produce scientists before Islam. Jiroft and Mesopotomian Civilisations, and Elamite, Persian and Parthian/Sassanid Empires all produced wonderful scientists. Further development of science, technology and philosophy in the same areas after Islam could not be attributed to Islam. After Islam, the Muslim scientists only developed further on the same Kafir edifice. Have a look at the following and the references at the end, please.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_Iran

I would like to know the names of those Muslim philosophers who were "original" thinkers; the role of Muslim invaders/imperialists/colonialists who destroyed knowledge; and, the present status of science, technology and philosophy in the Muslim World.

daurangir

11-19-2008, 06:57 AM

I don't know what is the relevance of 'how old was Islam' to all this?! Anyway, I mentioned this invasion as because of this invasion a new vista was opened for the Muslims. What they couldn't try in their own lands was tried in Spain.

I mentioned only (Shia) Muslim Persians but at the same time I did make a reference to the Persian (Kafir) scientists before Islam. My point was that Islam as such had nothing to do with science and philisophy in Persia.

In fact it is the (Kafir) West who are writing about the scientists of regions other than the West itself. I have watched some wonderful documentaries about Muslim scientists on BBC and Channel 5 and unfortunately not on Algazeera and PTV. But we have to admit that the Greeks did wonderfully well in all fields of knowledge and science and gave the rest of the world a base on which the latter could develop further.

Persian did produce scientists before Islam. Jiroft and Mesopotomian Civilisations, and Elamite, Persian and Parthian/Sassanid Empires all produced wonderful scientists.Further development of science, technology and philosophy in the same areas after Islam could not be attributed to Islam. After Islam, the Muslim scientists only developed further on the same Kafir edifice. Have a look at the following and the references at the end, please.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_Iran

I would like to know the names of those Muslim philosophers who were "original" thinkers; the role of Muslim invaders/imperialists/colonialists who destroyed knowledge; and, the present status of science, technology and philosophy in the Muslim World.

Thank u very much for ur interest, but I m afraid there is some mis-information in your post.

Spain under Muslims was always behind Damascus and Baghdad, till the time of Ibn Rushd. It was Baghdaad that all scholars, whether Jews, Muslims or Christians, flocked to.

What were the Muslim lands then? And what experiments were done in Spain, which could not have been done in the Eastern Caliphate? It was not a new vista at all, as compared to Egypt, Syria and Iran.

Sorry, the Persian scientists u mentioned were Sunnis as well as Shias. Al-Faraabi, Geber (Jabir bin Hayyan), Algazel (Ghazali), Avicenna (ibn Sina), Tabrizi etc etc. were all Muslims, and barring Avicenna and Geber, the rest were Sunnis. Besides, al Faraabi was a Turk from Utrar, Eastern Turkestan, which city was at that time called Faraab.

Yes Muslims learnt philosophy mainly from Greeks. But who did Greeks learn it from? And Islam, as well as the Caliphate, encouraged philosophy alongwith many othere sciences.
So it is wrong to assert Islam had nothing to do with science and philosophy.

Yes, it is that some Westerners are spreading knowledge and information about Islam. But it is equally that some Westerners are withholding the truth from spreading.

And I m not denying what Greeks did. (In fact the greatest person who inspired me, and still does, was Socrates.) But much before the gradual fall and later the defeat of the Greeks (the Byzantines, or Eastern Roman Empire) in the Near East, their sciences were falling from grace and were not in vogue. The Umayyada, and later the Abbasisds of the Eastern caliphate, encouraged translations from Greek classics, as well as from Indian texts as there were great numbers of Indians in the Persian army.

This is what wikipedia says about philosophy.

Neither reason nor inquiry began with the Ancient Greeks, but the Socratic method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method) did, along with the idea of Forms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forms), great advances in geometry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometry), logic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic), and the natural sciences. Defining the difference between the Ancient Greek quest for knowledge and the quests of the elder civilizations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization), such as the ancient Egyptians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egypt) and Babylonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonia), has long been a topic of study by theorists of civilization. Benjamin Farrington (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Farrington), former Professor of Classics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classics) at Swansea University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swansea_University) wrote:
"Men were weighing for thousands of years before Archimedes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes) worked out the laws of equilibrium; they must have had practical and intuitional knowledge of the principles involved. What Archimedes did was to sort out the theoretical implications of this practical knowledge and present the resulting body of knowledge as a logically coherent system."

So despite the presence of other philosophies, the early-most Muslims were inspired by the Greek philosophy. But where did the Greeks learn it from? Read below:

An Overview of Black History

Compiled & Edited by Phillip True, Jr. 16. Egyptian Philosophy

From the time of Pharaoh of the Third Dynasty to Pharaoh Khufu of Cheops of the Fourth Dynasty (builder of the great pyramids of Giza), we can see the superior intellect of these ancient African people. Their understanding of mathematics and knowledge of the heavens and the sun with relationship to the stars is astonishing. These people had studied astronomy in Egypt and the lands south of Punt for thousands of years. This is evidenced by the monuments that remain such as the Great Sphinx of Giza, the half human animal figure that dates back to the ancients of the ancients.
Kemet or Ta-merry was the center of learning. People from all over the Mediterranean came to study in their Mystery Schools. The Greek philosophers were students or had some contact with the students of the Egyptian institutions of learning. The Greeks who learned the ancient teachings of science, mathematics, astronomy, medicine, masonry, etc. were considered enemies of the state of Athens and were imprisoned exiled, or put to death.
There is in existence, a list of alleged Greek philosophers, who were regarded as undesirables in the Greek State in which they were citizens. These philosophers continued accepting their source of wisdom and knowledge from Egypt (Kemet), at the risk of physical injury to themselves. They were men who kept the records in their heads, and operated in deep secrecy in fear of the state (Greece).
Any Greek citizen that embraced foreign ideology was considered a criminal and a "teacher of an alien philosophy." This charge was lodged against Socrates, Aristotle, and others in the Greek government. It was Socrates who was put into prison and later sentenced to death by the same people who now claim his teachings as their own. All Egyptian temples carried inscriptions on the outside addressed to the Neophytes (initiates). And among them was the injunction "Know Thyself." Socrates copied these words from the Egyptian temples, but was not the author.
The Egyptian Mystery system was also a secret order. Membership was gained by initiation and a pledge of secrecy. The teachings were graded and delivered orally by the Neophyte; and under these circumstances of secrecy, the Egyptians developed secret systems of writing and teachings, and forbade their initiates from writing what they had learned. After nearly five thousand years of prohibition against the Greeks, they were permitted to enter Egypt for the purpose of their education. First through the Persian invasion and secondly through the invasion of Alexander the Great. The Greeks made the best of their chance to learn all they could about Egyptian culture. After the invasion of Alexander, the royal temples and libraries were plundered and pillaged, and Aristotle's school converted the library of Alexandria into a research center.
"It is Imhotep," said Sir William Osler of John Hopkins University, "who was the real father of medicine. The first figure of a physician to stand out clearly from the mists of antiquity." Imhotep, a multi-level genius, called "God of Medicine, Prince of Peace, and a type of Christ."If Imhotep designed the first "step pyramid" in approximately 2680 B.C. (and he did), how did Pythagoras develop the so-called "Pythagorean Theorem," the formula for the triangle, when he lived 540 B.C., 2100 years after the pyramid was built?
The teachings were solely of the indigenous Africans of the Mystery System commonly in use along the Nile Valley and Great Lakes regions of Northern, Eastern, and Central Africa.

Why are you using the refrence Kafir, kafir at every turn? And who told you that Muslims destroyed knowledge? Read this and take some medicines for your anger.:icon_biggrin:

http://elib.unitar.edu.my/staff-publications/datuk/Nst3sept.pdf

daurangir

11-19-2008, 07:01 AM

This is what the West has confessed, zaka che nvar pa guta nah pategi. And they wer unbiased westerners, so they accepted facts, and wrote about them so that the biased 19th century Europeans come out of their vanity.

George Bernard Shaw and "The Genuine Islam"

http://www.movinghere.org.uk/gallery/achievement/images/shaw.jpg

When I went with my family many years ago in a tourism trip to "…", I found excellent books available everywhere even on the street!!! That was unusual scene for us, so I bought many books at that time, one of that books and my favorite one was about the writers of this world and their funniest stories, I liked so much "George Bernard Shaw" and his acrid criticizing and comments with other people like Winston Churchill, his beautiful secretary and some women…etc.

Then I heard that Shaw said nice things about our Real Perfect Islam and our Great Prophet Mohammed, he said the truth and didn't disfigure the truth for any hidden purposes.

I searched about what he said and I found this :

"I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today."

http://www.answers.com/topic/george-bernard-shaw (http://www.answers.com/topic/george-bernard-shaw)

Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.

"If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam."

And yet others said this:

Bertrand Russel in ‘History of Western Philosophy,’ London, 1948, p. 419.
"Our use of phrase 'The Dark ages' to cover the period from 699 to 1,000 marks our undue concentration on Western Europe...

"From India to Spain, the brilliant civilization of Islam flourished. What was lost to christendom at this time was not lost to civilization, but quite the contrary... "To us it seems that West-European civilization is civilization, but this is a narrow view."

H.G. Wells
"The Islamic teachings have left great traditions for equitable and gentle dealings and behavior, and inspire people with nobility and tolerance. These are human teachings of the highest order and at the same time practicable. These teachings brought into existence a society in which hard-heartedness and collective oppression and injustice were the least as compared with all other societies preceding it....Islam is replete with gentleness, courtesy, and fraternity."

Dr. William Draper in 'History of Intellectual Development of Europe'
"During the period of the Caliphs the learned men of the Christians and the Jews were not only held in great esteem but were appointed to posts of great responsibility, and were promoted to the high ranking job in the government....He (Caliph Haroon Rasheed) never considered to which country a learned person belonged nor his faith and belief, but only his excellence in the field of learning."

Thomas Carlyle in ‘Heroes, Hero Worship, and the Heroic in History,’ Lecture 2, Friday, 8th May 1840.
"As there is no danger of our becoming, any of us, Mahometans (i.e. Muslim), I mean to say all the good of him I justly can...

"When Pococke inquired of Grotius, where the proof was of that story of the pigeon, trained to pick peas from Mahomet's (Muhammad's) ear, and pass for an angel dictating to him? Grotius answered that there was no proof!...

"A poor, hard-toiling, ill-provided man; careless of what vulgar men toil for. Not a bad man, I should say; Something better in him than hunger of any sort, -- or these wild arab men, fighting and jostling three-and-twenty years at his hand, in close contact with him always, would not revered him so! They were wild men bursting ever and anon into quarrel, into all kinds of fierce sincerity; without right worth and manhood, no man could have commanded them. They called him prophet you say? Why he stood there face to face with them; bare, not enshrined in any mystry; visibly clouting his own cloak, cobbling his own shoes; fighting, counselling, ordering in the midst of them: they must have seen what kind of man he was, let him be called what you like! No emperor with his tiaras was obeyed as this man in a cloak of his own clouting. During three-and-twenty years of rough actual trial. I find something of a veritable Hero necessary for that, of itself... "These Arabs, the man Mahomet, and that one century, - is it not as if a spark had fallen, one spark, on a world of what proves explosive powder, blazes heaven-high from <A href="http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/quote4.htm">Delhi to Granada! I said, the Great man was always as lightning out of Heaven; the rest of men waited for him like fuel, and then they too would flame..."

Phillip Hitti in 'Short History of the Arabs.'

"During all the first part of the Middle Ages, no other people made as important a contribution to human progress as did the Arabs, if we take this term to mean all those whose mother-tongue was Arabic, and not merely those living in the Arabian peninsula. For centuries, Arabic was the language of learning, culture and intellectual progress for the whole of the civilized world with the exception of the Far East. From the IXth to the XIIth century there were more philosophical, medical, historical, religiuos, astronomical and geographical works written in Arabic than in any other human tongue."

daurangir

11-19-2008, 07:21 AM

You know, I always find it interesting when we talk about science and Quran. I'm glad you guys brought this up because I've had this one question in mind that's been bugging me for some time now.

Does anyone get what I'm asking? 'Cause I really, really wanna know how they understood this stuff back then (whatever has been understood and accepted only some decades or a centuries ago). And I surely hope my question isn't misunderstood but considered and answered (if possible) :)

Qrratogai, I sincerely and with great love answered ur q, although none of us is a scholar here and we may not, or must not, reply certain answers. But there is not a word of thanks from ur lips. I dont demand thanks but as a Puxtoon I want that other Puxtoons should be genuinely civilized.:)

dardmand

11-19-2008, 01:00 PM

Yes Muslims learnt philosophy mainly from Greeks. But who did Greeks learn it from? And Islam, as well as the Caliphate, encouraged philosophy alongwith many othere sciences.

The word "who" is irrelevant in the whole discussion as we are talking about the human beings and their interaction and curiosity and free thinking and inquiry. Again the the word "Islam" is misleading here as we are talking about the Greeks and not their Paganism.

We should not mislead by implying that the march of civilization and the search for knowledge was anything but divine. It would be a negation of the human spirit which has always been in search of knowledge infinite.

daurangir

11-19-2008, 02:36 PM

The word "who" is irrelevant in the whole discussion as we are talking about the human beings and their interaction and curiosity and free thinking and inquiry. Again the the word "Islam" is misleading here as we are talking about the Greeks and not their Paganism.

We should not mislead by implying that the march of civilization and the search for knowledge was anything but divine. It would be a negation of the human spirit which has always been in search of knowledge infinite.

100 % agreed, if you are doing it for Humanism.

But I think that Dawezai is talking differently from you.
Uou are indeed a Humanist, and I know that you are imbiased most of the time, as I am also not biased against any religeon, any economic system, any social system, any political system, in fact any human system. I may belong to a certain faith, may prefer an economic system which is as per my faith, but our priests profess otherwise. I may like a political system_ and wait, I am evolving that political system. I am going to be the founder of that political system. The first Puxtoon to have so far done it (kho zah yavastavey im!)__ , I may be in favour of a social system, which my priests think is Godless.
But it is that when one person or his friends start blaming and ridiculig on basis of colour, creed, race, stc etc, has a humanist like u protested to them? So then an equal Humanist like me take the side of that other group. I havee ddone it for Singleton even. Is he my cousin/tarbur, zma skhar *wink*, my teacher, my friend my chaa chaa mama, what? Where were u then o my friend, nephew and kaliwaala?:love:

Even in this thread I m contesting the case of EAST, not of Islam.

Otherwise my inspirer is Socrates:love: ( I also am spoling teh youngsters of Khyberwatch:icon_biggrin: , and these powerful protagonists will make me drink that hemlock cup:love: . Would love it! I would have done my job, declared my messsage clearly, MY JOb done! Au revoir, so long, Auf widerzehen, Khuda Hafiz, Da Khudai pa Amaaan, my disciples. Dont forget me, as I with great love and sometimes a sweet qaar, I tried to mold you into becoming the harbingers of a 1st PUxtoon utopia. But I m perforce leaving. If u want to remeber me remember, what I have told you and declared to you. *not at all jazbaati* As I have great hopes that it will not happen. )

DawezayMomand

11-19-2008, 03:19 PM

dardmand

11-19-2008, 04:38 PM

Otherwise my inspirer is Socrates ( I also am spoling teh youngsters of Khyberwatch , and these powerful protagonists will make me drink that hemlock cup . Would love it! I would have done my job, declared my messsage clearly, MY JOb done! Au revoir, so long, Auf widerzehen, Khuda Hafiz, Da Khudai pa Amaaan, my disciples. Dont forget me, as I with great love and sometimes a sweet qaar, I tried to mold you into becoming the harbingers of a 1st PUxtoon utopia. But I m perforce leaving. If u want to remeber me remember, what I have told you and declared to you. *not at all jazbaati* As I have great hopes that it will not happen. )
lol. As far as I remember his last speech was fairly emotional. I mean "appeal to emotions" as the term is called in logic.

daurangir

11-19-2008, 04:57 PM

Thanks Kaka Jana but I will only read your posts if you bring them to normal fonts and when you only quote parts from other sources in support of your arguments. Or JUST give me the links instead of posting the whole stuff from other websites.

Please accept my appologies but I, seriously, have problem with reading fonts other than normal and lengthy stuff coppied from other sources.

Manana.

Lame excuses, ego, vanity! Because u dont want to be bewitched by me, huh!:icon_biggrin:

Ting sha, as I shall never leave you at peace, untill you come to my side and start working in unison with me. Dont waste yourself and your qualities. You are muffling your qualities because of unbalanced thoughts and illogical ego.:)
You dont know your priorities and appropriations. Try to find them out.

Actually the links dont stay forever, and then may lead u to blank pages, and the whole purpose of writing is wasted.

I shal try to remember to give links as well as the subject matter. I shall try to standardise the fonts, but u urself praized internet. So i said, okay, just leave books behind and give him a doze of his own Aab i Hayat.:icon_biggrin: :love:

daurangir

11-19-2008, 05:00 PM

lol. As far as I remember his last speech was fairly emotional. I mean "appeal to emotions" as the term is called in logic.

I was speaking about myself marra, not his last speech. That is, if this were to happen I would say this, but at this moment I was not jazbaati as why should I be in advance?:icon_biggrin:

daurangir

11-20-2008, 03:06 AM

Admin khan mama hagha sakraan os rapregda.

Hahahaha! Ashnaa vaaya. Daa staa kilaas fallo nah dey, der vraan dey ao der hazat dey.:love: Da dah na che ukh vrak v no da balai da paasa ai latai.:icon_biggrin:

Khudai khabar che dah sara laa zamaa mina valey paidaa keda.:confused4:

Ao staa hagha shaer tsah dey

.........laa dah ta pakey gora:icon_biggrin: qaqa qaqa qaaaa qaaaaaa qaaaaaaaaaa qaaaaa qaaaaaaaaaa. Vai Khudaaya, kulmey de raala shney krrey.

Gohar Nangyal

11-20-2008, 12:14 PM

.........laa dah ta pakey gora:icon_biggrin: qaqa qaqa qaaaa qaaaaaa qaaaaaaaaaa qaaaaa qaaaaaaaaaa.Vai Khudaaya, kulmey de raala shney krrey.

LOL.......................nu D.kakaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa:icon_biggrin: woli khafa kigie
da KAKA kho da pukhto la tolo na khoog takey dey.........

by calling BABA,LALA,KAkA etc it shows the respect & pukhtoonwali & think everyone should follow this........HAHAHAHA

Za kho wayam chi DARDMAND saib la hum da title werkro........ LALA:icon_biggrin:
ka sanga Daurangir kaka:icon_biggrin:

dardmand

11-20-2008, 06:06 PM

.........laa dah ta pakey gora:icon qaqa qaqa qaaaa qaaaaaa qaaaaaaaaaa qaaaaa qaaaaaaaaaa. Vai Khudaaya, kulmey de raala shney krrey.
kaka jana da DM kho mong yari hom mano ao mashari hom.:)

daurangir

11-21-2008, 02:17 AM

Dah yao zal pa ghaltai taa ta Kakajan likaley vo, bas no Spin sahar te tobey uvistaley. Taa na hum os sharmegi kho laa m:icon_biggrin: akhey la nah dey darghaley.

dardmand

11-21-2008, 09:38 AM

DawezayMomand

11-21-2008, 12:19 PM

daurangir

11-21-2008, 03:25 PM

Kaka Jana, with due appologies you got me wrong again. I have medical problem with reading coloured fonts. And by using internet I didn't mean to use it a bad way. Being a member of KW, we all have to use net anyway. We cannot open forums in book.

We all have egos but I exactly know what I need to do. Some of us want to make a team by declaring themselves team bosses at first. Please try to rethink about this strategy.

Thanks.

I m really sorry about ur medical problem, but this is the first time u said so, and that too after I replied to you.

And I havent declared myself a team boss first. :) This is just a subjective feeling. Cheeer up!:)

daurangir

11-23-2008, 07:34 PM

Zoroastrianism

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism)
The teachings of Zarathustra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster) (Zoroaster) appeared in Persia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persia) at some point during the period between 1000-588 BCE. [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_philosophy#cite_note-Whitley-0) His wisdom became the basis of the religion Zoroastrianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism), and generally influenced the development of the Iranian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples) branch of Indo-Iranian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians) philosophy. Zarathustra was the first who treated the problem of evil in philosophical terms. [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_philosophy#cite_note-Whitley-0) He is also believed to be one of the oldest monotheists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism) in the history of religion. He espoused an ethical philosophy based on the primacy of good thoughts (pendar-e-nik), good words (goftar-e-nik), and good deeds (kerdar-e-nik).

The works of Zoroaster and Zoroastrianism had a significant influence on Greek philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_philosophy) and Roman philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Western_philosophy). Several ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek) writers such as Eudoxus of Cnidus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudoxus_of_Cnidus) and Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) writers such as Pliny the Elder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Elder) praised Zoroastrian philosophy as "the most famous and most useful". Plato (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato) learnt of Zoroastrian philosophy through Eudoxus and incorporated much of it into his own Platonic realism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_realism).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_philosophy#cite_note-1) In the 3rd century BC, however, Colotes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colotes) accused Plato's The Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Republic_(Plato)) of plagiarizing parts of Zoroaster's On Nature, such as the Myth of Er (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_Er).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_philosophy#cite_note-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_philosophy#cite_note-3)
Zarathustra was known as a sage, magician and miracle-worker in post-Classical Western culture, though almost nothing was known of his ideas until the late eighteenth century. By this time his name was associated with lost ancient wisdom and was appropriated by Freemasons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasons) and other groups who claimed access to such knowledge. He appears in Mozart's opera "Die Zauberflöte" under the variant name "Sarastro", who represents moral order in opposition to the "Queen of the Night". Enlightenment writers such as Voltaire promoted research into Zoroastrianism in the belief that it was a form of rational Deism, preferable to Christianity.
In 2005, the Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy ranked Zarathustra number two in the chronology of philosophical events. Zarathustra's impact lingers today due in part to the system of rational ethics he founded called Mazda-Yasna. The word Mazda-Yasna is avestan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan) and is translated as "Worship of Wisdom" in English.
The Persian philosopher Osthanes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osthanes) was also under the influence of Zarathustra's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarathustra) ideas and philosophy, which afterwards affected the Greek philosophy through Democritus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democritus), his student.
Throughout Iranian history, due to Greek and Arabic influence, a wide spectrum of schools of thoughts showed a variety of views on philosophical questions extending from Old Iranian and Zoroastrian traditions, to schools appearing in the late pre-Islamic era, to various Islamic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) schools. Iranian philosophy after the Arab conquest of Persia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_conquest_of_Persia) is characterized by different interactions with the Old Iranian philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_philosophy) with Greek and Islamic philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_philosophy). The Illumination School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illumination_School) and the Transcendent Philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendent_Philosophy) are regarded as two of the main philosophical traditions of that era in Persia. Zoroastrianism likely had as much influence on the formation of Christianity as did Judaism and the Greek mystery religions.

Ludin

11-26-2008, 01:01 AM

Here is a debate between Dr. Zakir Naik and Dr. William Campbell. Its a bit long, but its worth watching.

Quran & The Bible in the Light of Science (http://www.veoh.com/channels/QuranAndBibleInLightOfScience)

Qrratugai

11-26-2008, 02:41 AM

Here is a debate between Dr. Zakir Naik and Dr. William Campbell. Its a bit long, but its worth watching.
Quran & The Bible in the Light of Science (http://www.veoh.com/channels/QuranAndBibleInLightOfScience)

Where can we find the full videos?

Dirojae

11-26-2008, 06:31 AM

Just out of curiosity..What do you guys think of Zakir Naik...simple..

Ludin

11-26-2008, 11:27 AM

Just out of curiosity..What do you guys think of Zakir Naik...simple..
because he has many debates and in those debates he has raised many good points.

Qrratugai

11-27-2008, 04:29 AM

Just out of curiosity..What do you guys think of Zakir Naik...simple..

What do I think of him? :) Not so highly. I think he makes sense very few times, but most times he doesn't make sense. Honestly, I read and watch his lectures from time to time just for entertainment :icon_confused:

In one of his lectures, someone asks him, "Are non-Muslims allowed to preach their religion in Muslim countries?" And Dr. Naik says no, and then gives what he thinks must have been a very logical answer -- something along the lines of: "Imagine that you are the principal of a school and are trying to hire a math teacher. Now, will you hire someone who has very good knowledge about math or will you hire just anyone?" (or something like that) ... I guess what he was trying to say was that "Only Muslim are on the 'right path,' so only they are allowed to preach their religions all over the world, including in non-Muslim lands, but non-Muslims can't do theirs in OUR lands."

Like, yo, what's up with that :hoonh:

Ever since he made that comment, I have been watching him for fun.

HowEVER, because of some of the rights of women that he preaches (especially focusing on education and their right to choose a partner, reject/accept proposals instead of having their parents do it all without their consent, etc.), I know of some Pashtun and Muslim women who have changed their thinkings of females, and I think it's because of Zakir Naik.

daurangir

11-27-2008, 04:42 AM

Yeah, some of his replies are not logical. But there are always some opposing Hindu or/and Christian intellectual sitting in the meeting. They must raise the objection which you and I can think of.

Else I appreciate his memory, as he has memorized even Ahadith's, Vedas and Bible. Grt memory!:clapping:

daurangir

11-27-2008, 04:50 AM

Hm... for a person who'll have to use those verses a lot, I guess, yeah, it's good he has them all memorized and stuff, but generally ... I'm very much against memorization of Quran/hadith :) especially when it is little, little children who are sent to memorize.

And, yes, there's always someone who can oppose and challenge his views/beliefs.

But this memorizing is a grrreat feat, isn't it? You cant dismiss it right away. But, I must add that, by saying this I dont wanna say that it's some Islamic miracle, as Dawezey wil be quick to point it to me. :love:

Dirojae

11-27-2008, 04:54 AM

What do I think of him? :) Not so highly. I think he makes sense very few times, but most times he doesn't make sense. Honestly, I read and watch his lectures from time to time just for entertainment :icon_confused:

In one of his lectures, someone asks him, "Are non-Muslims allowed to preach their religion in Muslim countries?" And Dr. Naik says no, and then gives what he thinks must have been a very logical answer -- something along the lines of: "Imagine that you are the principal of a school and are trying to hire a math teacher. Now, will you hire someone who has very good knowledge about math or will you hire just anyone?" (or something like that) ... I guess what he was trying to say was that "Only Muslim are on the 'right path,' so only they are allowed to preach their religions all over the world, including in non-Muslim lands, but non-Muslims can't do theirs in OUR lands."

Like, yo, what's up with that :hoonh:

Ever since he made that comment, I have been watching him for fun.

HowEVER, because of some of the rights of women that he preaches (especially focusing on education and their right to choose a partner, reject/accept proposals instead of having their parents do it all without their consent, etc.), I know of some Pashtun and Muslim women who have changed their thinkings of females, and I think it's because of Zakir Naik.

I dearly hoped some one would support me on this...it was on ARY this programme you mentioned..seriously..i laughed a lot when he gave this reply..i mean what is this..a joke..here is another one..
Some one asked him why are pigs haraam..and he was like..Pig is the only animal that is baighairat and invites other male pigs to mate with his female..so he said..whoever eats pork and that stuff becomes baighairat and swaps wives with other men..according to him it goes on in parties where pork is served..well..lol..and judge for yourself..
I think he is an example which makes the difference between Ilm and Maalumaat very clear..
I only watch his hindi/urdu programms..if i get time..i really like that hyedrabadi/whatever accent..its really funny..otherwise he is a waste of space..
About Hifz: I have always said spending 10 minutes on a verse of Quraan and ubderstanding its meaning and applying it in ur life is thousand times better than wasting 2 years on mnemorizing the Quran..

Qrratugai

11-27-2008, 04:56 AM

But this memorizing is a grrreat feat, isn't it? You cant dismiss it right away. But, I must add that, by saying this I dont wanna say that it's some Islamic miracle, as Dawezey wil be quick to point it to me. :love:

I see nothing good coming from having children memorizing Quran, when they have absolutely no idea what they're not only reading but memorizing. Of course, at a young age like that, it's best to do as much memorization as possible, but in a language they have no clue about? ... When they have no idea what they're learning, reading, memorizing? I believe that if they focused more on teaching these kids how to be better humans (in general), how to be good to other people, how to be better-educated and grow up to do something good for humanity, etc. -- instead of wasting their time having them memorize verses that they don't understand ONLY because their parents may believe that this person will take 10 people to heaven with him/her upon memorizing the whole Quran -- we'd be living in a much safer, more peaceful world :)

Dirojae

11-27-2008, 05:03 AM

I see nothing good coming from having children memorizing Quran, when they have absolutely no idea what they're not only reading but memorizing. Of course, at a young age like that, it's best to do as much memorization as possible, but in a language they have no clue about? ... When they have no idea what they're learning, reading, memorizing? I believe that if they focused more on teaching these kids how to be better humans (in general), how to be good to other people, how to be better-educated and grow up to do something good for humanity, etc. -- instead of wasting their time having them memorize verses that they don't understand ONLY because their parents may believe that this person will take 10 people to heaven with him/her upon memorizing the whole Quran -- we'd be living in a much safer, more peaceful world :)

Moreover from an islamic point of view what is to be gained by rote-learning the Quran..Quran is Ilm not merely words of Arabic..Quran is to be understood not memorized..i have come across many Hufaaz (if that is the right word) who are as jahil as any one..plus they get this false aura of piety around them..just not good enough..

Qrratugai

11-27-2008, 05:04 AM

I dearly hoped some one would support me on this...it was on ARY this programme you mentioned..seriously..i laughed a lot when he gave this reply..i mean what is this..a joke..here is another one..
Some one asked him why are pigs haraam..and he was like..Pig is the only animal that is baighairat and invites other male pigs to mate with his female..so he said..whoever eats pork and that stuff becomes baighairat and swaps wives with other men..according to him it goes on in parties where pork is served..well..lol..and judge for yourself..
I think he is an example which makes the difference between Ilm and Maalumaat very clear..
I only watch his hindi/urdu programms..if i get time..i really like that hyedrabadi/whatever accent..its really funny..otherwise he is a waste of space..
About Hifz: I have always said spending 10 minutes on a verse of Quraan and ubderstanding its meaning and applying it in ur life is thousand times better than wasting 2 years on mnemorizing the Quran..

OHH MY GOD LOL!! I soo agree (especially with spending time to understand a Quranic verse and apply it to your life instead of wasting your childhood memorizing a whole Book you have no understanding of)!
And, YES, I've read his reply to why pigs are haraam, LOL! He has no understanding of the West and loooves to bring it up in his replies when defending Islam (e.g., "Islam says no pork because look at westerners: they eat pork, so they are disloyal to their spouses and because it's true that you are what you eat, humans who eat pork become dirty and immoral like pigs -- including swapping partners, as is the nature of pigs").
NO animal has a perfect lifestyle; no animal is perfectly "pure" ... chickens eat their own feces too; cows give us some of the diseases that pigs are known to give as well. But it's something that monotheistic religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) have against poor pigs that make them completely haraam ... Christianity not so much in the New Testament, though.

But, yeah, most of his responses are quite illogical to me, too.

daurangir

11-27-2008, 05:10 AM

Dirojae

11-27-2008, 05:11 AM

OHH MY GOD LOL!! I soo agree (especially with spending time to understand a Quranic verse and apply it to your life instead of wasting your childhood memorizing a whole Book you have no understanding of)!
And, YES, I've read his reply to why pigs are haraam, LOL! He has no understanding of the West and loooves to bring it up in his replies when defending Islam (e.g., "Islam says no pork because look at westerners: they eat pork, so they are disloyal to their spouses and because it's true that you are what you eat, humans who eat pork become dirty and immoral like pigs -- including swapping partners, as is the nature of pigs").
NO animal has a perfect lifestyle; no animal is perfectly "pure" ... chickens eat their own feces too; cows give us some of the diseases that pigs are known to give as well. But it's something that monotheistic religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) have against poor pigs that make them completely haraam ... Christianity not so much in the New Testament, though.

But, yeah, most of his responses are quite illogical to me, too.

Well..i just think it is absurd and simply stupid to compare animals and humans..Humans have Ilm, animals dont..so if 2 humans kill for sex its haraam but if 2 animals kill for sex it is perfectly natural..

Dirojae

11-27-2008, 05:12 AM

daurangir

11-27-2008, 05:19 AM

Well..i just think it is absurd and simply stupid to compare animals and humans..Humans have Ilm, animals dont..so if 2 humans kill for sex its haraam but if 2 animals kill for sex it is perfectly natural..

Hahaha!! It reminds me of a tour I took in Maasai Mara National Park in Kenya. I was shown grant-gazelles whose males fight over females (sometimes in 20s), and when one finally wins the fight, has all the females to him. The other males dont go away but keep watching from afar, and grazing. (No jokes intended here, but yoon hee!:icon_biggrin: )

Dirojae

11-27-2008, 05:22 AM

Hahaha!! It reminds me of a tour I took in Maasai Mara National Park in Kenya. I was shown grant-gazelles whose males fight over females (sometimes in 20s), and when one finally wins the fight, has all the females to him. The other males dont go away but keep watching from afar, and grazing. (No jokes intended here, but yoon hee!:icon_biggrin: )

sa ba uwayu munga no..sa wele shu..:icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin:
de noro gharibano me zra khapa sho..Alla tash panri..
ao zanawaraan hum capitalistaan dee..

Qrratugai

11-27-2008, 05:26 AM

Yeah i agree with both of u Dirojae and Qrratugai.

In a time where there were no recording implements, this was the only way to pass it on to others. But now it is altogether useless. People sell it, as when they lead the taraaveeh prayers.

And, the book which is a guidance for pursuasion on good deeds, has become only an amulet like thing, used only for imaginary blessings. Some even do a khatam of bismillah. These are those who are illiterate. They just read bismillah while cursing index finger over a sentence (ayat.)

And then there are those "khatams" -- khatams like having a million people gather to read Surah Yaseen oh so many times, or having a person read 2 - 3 sipaaras so that everyone together finishes the whole Quran in one setting :icon_confused:, or then having everyone in the gathering chant a particular verse of the Quran (most common one: Laa ilaaha illa anta subhaanaka innee kunto minazzaalimeen)!! All these only so that the person for whom it's being done can get a job, get into some university he/she wants badly, get married, have a son, etc. ... or then have the person go to heaven if dead. Saddest thing is, I remember being pressured and forced to do all this nonsense when I was a kid ... like under 10!! How did they know I had audas and was eligible to do it so? I remember skipping through many pages and lines just to be done earlier ... and, of course, other times I'd just move my lips and not be saying or reading anything at all. Ahhh... fun times. (Hah, now, though, I have an advantage to making up a very natural excuse to avoid these magical khatams :D)

daurangir

11-27-2008, 06:12 AM

sa ba uwayu munga no..sa wele shu..:icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin:
de noro gharibano me zra khapa sho..Alla tash panri..
ao zanawaraan hum capitalistaan dee..

Pa bal thread ki ba pa dey topic ogarregu, kha Dirojaea.:love:

Hussey zamaa khyaal dey che insaan der tsizuna da dey zanaavaro ao insects na zda karrey di.

daurangir

11-27-2008, 06:15 AM

Qrratogai, u must be doing the same salook with ur studies, kha!

Hussey, these rituals are followed more in sub-continental societies.

Qrratugai

11-27-2008, 06:17 AM

Qrratogai, u must be doing the same salook with ur studies, kha!

Hussey, these rituals are followed more in sub-continental societies.

LOL! No! :P My studies are the most important thing in my life, so I can't afford to cheat with them :D

daurangir

11-27-2008, 06:19 AM

LOL! No! :P My studies are the most important thing in my life, so I can't afford to cheat with them :D
Pretty quick ith typing, eh!:clapping: :clapping: I cant keep pace with you.:knockout:

Dirojae

11-27-2008, 07:34 AM

LOL! No! :P My studies are the most important thing in my life, so I can't afford to cheat with them :D

daa studies munga beekhee jwand ta na pregdee..at least maa kho na pregde...Mom Dad ba way O Levelz zaruri de..bya e way A Levels zaruri de life making exam de..us uni ke gpa zaruri da..bya ba job ke zaan la 8am-5pm garzu..waara ba zaan la chang chang kayee..wala daa sabak der zaalim she de..za kho waym che kas de at least 10 kala college key terawee..i luv college..best time day..walla..

daurangir

11-27-2008, 07:42 AM

daa studies munga beekhee jwand ta na pregdee..at least maa kho na pregde...Mom Dad ba way O Levelz zaruri de..bya e way A Levels zaruri de life making exam de..us uni ke gpa zaruri da..bya ba job ke zaan la 8am-5pm garzu..waara ba zaan la chang chang kayee..wala daa sabak der zaalim she de..za kho waym che kas de at least 10 kala college key terawee..i luv college..best time day..walla..
Khapa di krram college pasey. Maa yao nazam varpasey likaley vo, kho Urdu k dey, no da KW protocol sara nah samegi. Yara, I m equally sick of my job. Maa khpalo kaaruno ta nah pregdi.:sick:

Dirojae

11-27-2008, 07:42 AM

Ludin

11-27-2008, 06:45 PM

Some one asked him why are pigs haraam..and he was like..Pig is the only animal that is baighairat and invites other male pigs to mate with his female..so he said..whoever eats pork and that stuff becomes baighairat and swaps wives with other men..according to him it goes on in parties where pork is served..well..lol..and judge for yourself..

:confused4: are you sure? Can you please point this out for me?

I see nothing good coming from having children memorizing Quran, when they have absolutely no idea what they're not only reading but memorizing. Of course, at a young age like that, it's best to do as much memorization as possible, but in a language they have no clue about? ... When they have no idea what they're learning, reading, memorizing? I believe that if they focused more on teaching these kids how to be better humans (in general), how to be good to other people, how to be better-educated and grow up to do something good for humanity, etc. -- instead of wasting their time having them memorize verses that they don't understand ONLY because their parents may believe that this person will take 10 people to heaven with him/her upon memorizing the whole Quran -- we'd be living in a much safer, more peaceful world :)

In my opinion, when people get older, they generally are not good at memorizing. The kids that I've seen who have memorized the Qur'an are not upset about what they have memorized. Its just difference between minds. For me or you, who have been raised in a Western society, think that there is no point in memorizing Qur'an if you don't know what it means. But for them its pointless if you spend your life without memorizing the Qur'an. Parents force their children to learn what they couldn't, and so we will do this to our children too.

Yeah i agree with both of u Dirojae and Qrratugai.

In a time where there were no recording implements, this was the only way to pass it on to others. But now it is altogether useless. People sell it, as when they lead the taraaveeh prayers.

And, the book which is a guidance for pursuasion on good deeds, has become only an amulet like thing, used only for imaginary blessings. Some even do a khatam of bismillah. These are those who are illiterate. They just read bismillah while cursing index finger over a sentence (ayat.)

These people are Jahil of our time and we can do nothing but show them the truth.

yeah wror me..you must have seen little kids moving like pendulums memorizing the Holy Book..i just think it is an insult to the Great Book..

can't this be a form of literacy. Isn't it better then nothing, as most of the people have nothing.

daa studies munga beekhee jwand ta na pregdee..at least maa kho na pregde...Mom Dad ba way O Levelz zaruri de..bya e way A Levels zaruri de life making exam de..us uni ke gpa zaruri da..bya ba job ke zaan la 8am-5pm garzu..waara ba zaan la chang chang kayee..wala daa sabak der zaalim she de..za kho waym che kas de at least 10 kala college key terawee..i luv college..best time day..walla..

For each generation the standards get higher. We have to do more studies then our parents. To tell you the truth, I absolutely hate studying, but what you can you say, you have to study to help yourself and others in this life.

Qrratugai

11-27-2008, 07:16 PM

:confused4: are you sure? Can you please point this out for me?

I can! Lemme paste to you what he has said about why pork is haraam (from http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm, under "Most Common Questions asked by Non-Muslims"):

5. Pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth

The pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth. It lives and thrives on muck, faeces and dirt. It is the best scavenger that I know that God has produced. In the villages they don’t have modern toilets and the villagers excrete in the open air. Very often excreta is cleared by pigs.

Some may argue that in advanced countries like Australia, pigs are bred in very clean and hygienic conditions. Even in these hygienic conditions the pigs are kept together in sties. No matter how hard you try to keep them clean they are filthy by nature. They eat and enjoy their own as well as their neighbour’s excreta.

6. Pig is the most shameless animal

The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives; i.e. many say "you sleep with my wife and I will sleep with your wife." If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs. We Indians look upon America to be very advanced and sophisticated. Whatever they do, we follow after a few years. According to an article in Island magazine, this practice of swapping wives has become common in the affluent circles of Bombay.

And then watch him here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtmD2UHn8L8 ("Islam's Prohibition on Swine (pork)." His reason that "Pig is the filthiest animal on earth" starts at 3:48.)

@ Dirojae: Enjoy the video :love:

Dirojae

11-27-2008, 07:20 PM

:confused4: are you sure? Can you please point this out for me?
like how..how do you want me point this out for you..wror me..

can't this be a form of literacy. Isn't it better then nothing, as most of the people have nothing.

how exactly do you define literacy..It must have some thawaab but understanding the Quran must have thawaab of millions of times the magnitude..plus the obvious practical advantage..

For each generation the standards get higher. We have to do more studies then our parents. To tell you the truth, I absolutely hate studying, but what you can you say, you have to study to help yourself and others in this life.

yeah your right wror me..but..i dont know..its seems too much..like your whole life after teens is a boring monotonous affair..plus we have this sleeping nation of ours to sort out..and a religion to die for..

Ludin

11-27-2008, 07:25 PM

Qrratugai

11-27-2008, 07:29 PM

Dirojae aw Qrratugai, lol

out of the whole clip, you only point out one small fact he mentions. If this is written in another book, you would just consider it as small fact, but now when he says this fact, you laugh at him. :confused:2

No. I showed that only because you asked to point out to you where he said that.
I have nothing personally against him, if that's what you're assuming :) Like I said, he makes no sense most times but he loooves to tell Muslims that "When arguing about Islam with a non-Muslim, it's important to be logical and to show the positive aspects of Islam." I wanna know where logic is in many of his arguments :icon_confused: He's telling non-Muslims that "in <such and such verse> the Quran tells us that Islam is the only religion Allah will ever accept from anyone. So you should be Muslim!" LOL!

Now, see this :) Zakir Naik on why Muslims are not allowed to preach their religion in Muslim lands (his "logic" starts 00:49): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jYUL7eBdHg

Ludin

11-27-2008, 07:30 PM

like how..how do you want me point this out for you..wror me..
dirojae wrora, you are a bit late. Qrratugai has already pointed the clip out.

how exactly do you define literacy..It must have some thawaab but understanding the Quran must have thawaab of millions of times the magnitude..plus the obvious practical advantage..
If literacy means to read and write, aren't these people learning how to read and write?

yeah your right wror me..but..i dont know..its seems too much..like your whole life after teens is a boring monotonous affair..plus we have this sleeping nation of ours to sort out..and a religion to die for..[/QUOTE]
too much it maybe, but its need to survive in the current world. We are doing these studies to help our sleeping nation and plus to our sleeping ummah.

Ludin

11-27-2008, 07:33 PM

No. I showed that only because you asked to point out to you where he said that.
I have nothing personally against him, if that's what you're assuming :) Like I said, he makes no sense most times but he loooves to tell Muslims that "When arguing about Islam with a non-Muslim, it's important to be logical and to show the positive aspects of Islam." I wanna know where logic is in many of his arguments :icon_confused:

What I meant is that in the topic of the pig, he give many other scientific points, but you only mentioned the point about two male sharing a female.

Now, see this :) Zakir Naik on why Muslims are not allowed to preach their religion in Muslim lands (his "logic" starts 00:49): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jYUL7eBdHg
That is not his point of view. Its what Islam teaches, not him.

Qrratugai

11-27-2008, 07:39 PM

If literacy means to read and write, aren't these people learning how to read and write?

Learning how to read and write what? ... something they don't understand at all? In a language that they not only speak but don't understand, only know how to read and write it?
The point of reading and writing shouldn't be to just say, "Oh, I can read and write!" The point should be to say, "I can read and write in order to be able to express myself in a style that others will understand me in, in a language others will understand, in such a way that I can teach others, ... " etc. But what's the point if someone knows how to read and write in Arabic only because they know how to read the Quran and are taught how to write alif, baa, taa? That's where their illiteracy ends for most of them. Too many children are taken out of school just so that they can get to memorize the Quran. By the time they're done, they are too old to be in the same grade in which they were stopped. Some of them are stopped completely because their parents believe that "My child has attained the highest form of education: Memorization of Quran. Nothing beats this. He/she is done now."

Is that education? If so, then I'll have to admit my definition and understanding of education is very, VERY different from anyone else's who believes that memorizing the Quran = literacy and education.

Qrratugai

11-27-2008, 07:42 PM

That is not his point of view. Its what Islam teaches, not him.

Not his point of view? :O Of course it is.
Nonetheless, why? Is it fair that we expect non-Muslims to let us preach our religions in their land (we start up riots when they don't let us wear niqabs or just head scarves in their lands, don't let us pray in schools/officers, don't let us build a Mosque in an area we want it in, etc.), but we can't let them preach THEIRS in our lands because our religion forbids it? Just because we believe that we're on the right path and they're not? It's sad that we believe only we're on the right path and don't realize that everyone else believes just as strongly that they're on the right path as well. Why else would they be followers of whatever religion they are followers of?

I just wanna know where logic is in that claim of his: we're on the right path, so ONLY we Muslims are allowed to preach our religions to them; they can't preach theirs to us because their religion is the wrong one while ours is the right one. :rolleye:

Ludin

11-27-2008, 07:42 PM

Learning how to read and write what? ... something they don't understand at all? In a language that they not only speak but don't understand, only know how to read and write it?
The point of reading and writing shouldn't be to just say, "Oh, I can read and write!" The point should be to say, "I can read and write in order to be able to express myself in a style that others will understand me in, in a language others will understand, in such a way that I can teach others, ... " etc. But what's the point if someone knows how to read and write in Arabic only because they know how to read the Quran and are taught how to write alif, baa, taa? That's where their illiteracy ends for most of them. Too many children are taken out of school just so that they can get to memorize the Quran. By the time they're done, they are too old to be in the same grade in which they were stopped. Some of them are stopped completely because their parents believe that "My child has attained the highest form of education: Memorization of Quran. Nothing beats this. He/she is done now."

Is that education? If so, then I'll have to admit my definition and understanding of education is very, VERY different from anyone else's who believes that memorizing the Quran = literacy and education.
If we see the similarities between the languages, we will find out that there is bearlly any difference between. If you learn Arabic, then you learn Pashto, Farsi etc... In the regions of Pashtoon, they don't have schools to go to or even if they do, parents focus on their school more then Qur'an. In the places where there is no school, which is better for a child to do, learn to read and write Qur'an or just do nothing?

Qrratugai

11-27-2008, 07:57 PM

If we see the similarities between the languages, we will find out that there is bearlly any difference between. If you learn Arabic, then you learn Pashto, Farsi etc... In the regions of Pashtoon, they don't have schools to go to or even if they do, parents focus on their school more then Qur'an. In the places where there is no school, which is better for a child to do, learn to read and write Qur'an or just do nothing?

Of course it's better to do something than nothing at all. But we keep focusing on memorization and give these children the best treatment and treat them like they're some scholars or prophets or something :icon_confused: If we continue doing that, more and more parents will be convinced that their children should memorize the Quran in order for them to get some respect from everyone else.
But then again, for people who believe that memorizing the Quran will send the parents along with 8 other people to heaven with the child ... who are we to tell them that's a silly belief? :hoonh:

Ludin

11-27-2008, 08:01 PM

Of course it's better to do something than nothing at all. But we keep focusing on memorization and give these children the best treatment and treat them like they're some scholars or prophets or something :icon_confused: If we continue doing that, more and more parents will be convinced that their children should memorize the Quran in order for them to get some respect from everyone else.
But then again, for people who believe that memorizing the Quran will send the parents along with 8 other people to heaven with the child ... who are we to tell them that's a silly belief? :hoonh:
well, if memorizing Qur'an is that bad, why are the parents so focused on making them memorize the Qur'an. As far as I know, the parents want the best for their children.

Qrratugai

11-27-2008, 08:08 PM

well, if memorizing Qur'an is that bad, why are the parents so focused on making them memorize the Qur'an. As far as I know, the parents want the best for their children.

It's bad to people like me and some others on here, not to parents whose sole goal in life is to get heaven through having their children memorize the Quran.
And they're so focused on making their kids memorize the Quran because, as you said, they strongly believe that's the best thing they can do for their children :) Whether they're right or wrong, who's anyone to decide?
I'm against it as long as these children have proper access to "real" education (going to school to learn, read, and write, be educated, grow up to become something, and give back to their community using their means and knowledge). For children who have no access to education like that, memorizing the Quran at least gives them time to keep their brain active, even if we believe it'll be useless in the future.

Ludin

11-27-2008, 08:29 PM

It's bad to people like me and some others on here, not to parents whose sole goal in life is to get heaven through having their children memorize the Quran.
These kind of stuff are myths created by people about us. Yes, one or two people might think this, but that doesn't mean that our nation believes in this. I also believe that if a person who has memorized Qur'an, he will be able to take 10 people to heaven with him, but that doesn't mean that I will force my children to only memorize Qur'an. If people say that parents force their children to do this, its basically saying that Pashtoon is a stupid nation.

And they're so focused on making their kids memorize the Quran because, as you said, they strongly believe that's the best thing they can do for their children :) Whether they're right or wrong, who's anyone to decide?
Most people who force their children to memorize Qur'an is because they don't have any other sort of education system. So its much better for a parent to send their child to memorize Qur'an rather then letting him play cricket the whole day.

I'm against it as long as these children have proper access to "real" education (going to school to learn, read, and write, be educated, grow up to become something, and give back to their community using their means and knowledge). For children who have no access to education like that, memorizing the Quran at least gives them time to keep their brain active, even if we believe it'll be useless in the future.
This is the basic way of life in our region. We don't have any sort of education system so its better if they memorize and keep their brain active.

Qrratugai

11-27-2008, 09:18 PM

These kind of stuff are myths created by people about us. Yes, one or two people might think this, but that doesn't mean that our nation believes in this. I also believe that if a person who has memorized Qur'an, he will be able to take 10 people to heaven with him, but that doesn't mean that I will force my children to only memorize Qur'an. If people say that parents force their children to do this, its basically saying that Pashtoon is a stupid nation.

I disagree :) Many amongst us are ignorant, indeed, but that doesn't make them stupid because what's stupid to one person and one society and one era will not necessarily be stupid to another. And I think it just means that these parents are very, very much convinced about being sent to heaven through their children, so they wanna use that opportunity to get heaven. To me, it makes no sense to take someone to heaven just 'cause you memorized a whole Holy Book :) Heaven shouldn't come just like that; it should be a matter of a person's character in this world that should take him/her to heaven. And if the person gets to choose those 10 people, how do we know he/she will choose such righteous people? Besides, isn't each and every human responsible for his/her own actions and thoughts and gets what he or she has earned in this world? :) Where's justice if we get heaven just 'cause our child or our parent or our friend or someone who just loves us dearly decided we'll go to heaven because he or she memorized a Book considered Holy by them?

Ludin

11-27-2008, 10:00 PM

Besides, isn't each and every human responsible for his/her own actions and thoughts and gets what he or she has earned in this world? :) Where's justice if we get heaven just 'cause our child or our parent or our friend or someone who just loves us dearly decided we'll go to heaven because he or she memorized a Book considered Holy by them?
This is the key. Each and every human being is responsible for his/her own actions. Allah (SWT) didn't make it that easy so you can force your child to memorize the Qur'an and you will live in Jannah. You have to work for Jannah, not rely on others to take you to Jannah.

Qrratugai

11-27-2008, 10:02 PM

This is the key. Each and every human being is responsible for his/her own actions. Allah (SWT) didn't make it that easy so you can force your child to memorize the Qur'an and you will live in Jannah. You have to work for Jannah, not rely on others to take you to Jannah.
Then how does this fit into the idea that you can take 10 people to jannat with you if you memorize the Quran? That's a free ride, no?

Ludin

11-27-2008, 10:27 PM

Then how does this fit into the idea that you can take 10 people to jannat with you if you memorize the Quran? That's a free ride, no?
I think its those who have done little sin and will taste fire of hell for that little sin, so you can take them out. Those who are permanent resident of hell can't be taken out. maybe someone else who knows can clarify this.

Dirojae

11-28-2008, 06:51 AM

I think its those who have done little sin and will taste fire of hell for that little sin, so you can take them out. Those who are permanent resident of hell can't be taken out. maybe someone else who knows can clarify this.

the thing is..wror me..i think some times that its our naked lust for streams of wines and milk and honey and hoors and that kind of stuff that drives people to craziness and hence suicide bombings and that stuff..can't we just pray for as thanks to Allah..without any material desire..cant we fast without thinking of all the wine we'll be drinking in jannah..Why this lust for material objects is connected with such a pure ibaadat as Salat and Fast and others..and besides..i think all this stuff is metaphorical and spiritual in essence..i may be wrong..but yawa qeesa da..
Someone asked Imam Ali AS: "why do you indulge in prayers so much given you are one of the pure ones mentioned by Allah in the quran. You are blessed and a Masoom why do you indulge in prayer so much." Imam Ali AS replied " I never pray for jannat or any other material desire i only pray because my Allah is worthy of worship and to salute his Glory."
See..

Ludin

11-28-2008, 11:26 AM

the thing is..wror me..i think some times that its our naked lust for streams of wines and milk and honey and hoors and that kind of stuff that drives people to craziness and hence suicide bombings and that stuff..can't we just pray for as thanks to Allah..without any material desire..cant we fast without thinking of all the wine we'll be drinking in jannah..Why this lust for material objects is connected with such a pure ibaadat as Salat and Fast and others..and besides..i think all this stuff is metaphorical and spiritual in essence..i may be wrong..but yawa qeesa da..
Someone asked Imam Ali AS: "why do you indulge in prayers so much given you are one of the pure ones mentioned by Allah in the quran. You are blessed and a Masoom why do you indulge in prayer so much." Imam Ali AS replied " I never pray for jannat or any other material desire i only pray because my Allah is worthy of worship and to salute his Glory."
See..
I agree that our mind has changed the main purpose of ibaadat. But since we don't have proper knowledge of Islam in this time, we cannot compare ourselves with the companions of the Prophet (SAW), because even if they did sin, they would know if they have been forgiven because they would ask the Prophet (SAW). Secondly, these are the desires of humans, which is natural to every human.

daurangir

11-28-2008, 11:26 AM

I think its those who have done little sin and will taste fire of hell for that little sin, so you can take them out. Those who are permanent resident of hell can't be taken out. maybe someone else who knows can clarify this.

No, if it doesnt tally with the best criterion (furqan), the Holy Quran.
Quran doesnt support this, by saying, '..laa taziru vaaziratan vizra ukhra...'(no load crrying one will take someone else's load.)

Dirojae

12-01-2008, 08:37 AM

I agree that our mind has changed the main purpose of ibaadat. But since we don't have proper knowledge of Islam in this time, we cannot compare ourselves with the companions of the Prophet (SAW), because even if they did sin, they would know if they have been forgiven because they would ask the Prophet (SAW). Secondly, these are the desires of humans, which is natural to every human.

Never did i talk of comparing oneself with Imam Ali AS..wror me u misunderstood me..i merely pointed out the true essence of ibaadat..which is not to pray for material bounties of jannat as they lead us to destructive radical doctrines..indeed it is selflessness that promotes virtues and is a benefit to humanity at large..

daurangir

12-01-2008, 10:00 AM

Rabi'a Basri was a saint of early Muslim era. One day her disciples saw her carrying a fire lamp in one hand and a water ewer in the other. They asked her what she was about to do. She replied, 'I want to douse the hell fire with this water and to burn the paradize with this fire.' They asked what for. She replied, 'So that people stop observing their prayers because of the hope for paradize and the fear of hell fire, but that they should do them for the love and respect of Allah.'