Would you consider someone Pashtun only if the mother..

[Turyalay]

is Pashtun?

And that she raises her kids with Pashtunwali, they speak Pashto, and the kids grew up in the village and town of their Pashtun mother?

I'm bringing up this question because a while back some of the female members objected that the language doesnt play a big part, only the blood matters. So in this case, the father is not Pashtun, only the mother is (is her blood counted?). But the children are full Pashtun as far as the language/culture/heritage matters.

What are your thoughts?

[Mashal]

Nowadays pakhtoon is not 100% pakhtoon by blood as a lot other ethnic diversities have been intermixed with the real pashtoon tribes during the course of time.now they are pakhtoon because they are following the same culture and language and with time their habits and attitudes are so pakhtoon that they can,t be distinguished from a pakhtoon by blood.
nations format contains blood ofcourse but language and culture are the prime factors to decide your nationality.

[lazy daisy]

I have nothing to add but to say "Oh the shame of it" and I would ask how in the name of all thats holy did the woman manage to have children from a non Pushtun partner

If she married out of her culture and ethnic tribe she should be called a Punjabi... her Children should be called Punjabies whether their father is/was a Punjabi or not

because everyone knows that anyone in Pakistan who isnt Pukhtun is a Punjabi

If she ... excuse me here whilst I say Hai Hai Toba toba... married an Inglish man

Well thats in excusable... unless her children are white skinned and have rosy cheeks and can be married off on the arranged marriage market for the highest price... these children will be called Angrez but the mother will be called a bad lady

ugly children will not be called anything and will be spat upon in the streets... I mean what is the point of marrying an Inglish and then having ugly children!!!

If the woman in general marries a black person from somewhere like US or Jamaica .. well that is an obvious ...the children may speak all the pushtu they want but they will be called african.. they will be ostracied and be put at the bottom of the social scale... just above a Punjabi

[MandoKhail]

Pushtoon/Afghan/Pukhtoon has a family tree where we are belonging to one tribe then further identified by family, any pushtoon woman who is married to non-Pushtoon is pushtoon but her kids don't belong to us,Some Pushtoon has Pushtoon blood but they are raised outside Pushtoonkhwa watan so they can't speak Pashto(cuz of thier sensless parents),infact they are far far away, here, they are Pushtoon by blood and no one can deny this..others are minorities living in Pushtoonkhwa watan, they are non-Pushtoon but living here with us on Pushtoonkhwa watan they speak pashto and even follow all traditions of Pushtoons, now they consider them selves as a Pushtoons.

[Turyalay]

I have nothing to add but to say "Oh the shame of it" and I would ask how in the name of all thats holy did the woman manage to have children from a non Pushtun partner

If she married out of her culture and ethnic tribe she should be called a Punjabi... her Children should be called Punjabies whether their father is/was a Punjabi or not

because everyone knows that anyone in Pakistan who isnt Pukhtun is a Punjabi

If she ... excuse me here whilst I say Hai Hai Toba toba... married an Inglish man

Well thats in excusable... unless her children are white skinned and have rosy cheeks and can be married off on the arranged marriage market for the highest price... these children will be called Angrez but the mother will be called a bad lady

ugly children will not be called anything and will be spat upon in the streets... I mean what is the point of marrying an Inglish and then having ugly children!!!

If the woman in general marries a black person from somewhere like US or Jamaica .. well that is an obvious ...the children may speak all the pushtu they want but they will be called african.. they will be ostracied and be put at the bottom of the social scale... just above a Punjabi


You added a lot and most of it was crap.

Thanks anyways

[Turyalay]

Pushtoon/Afghan/Pukhtoon has a family tree where we are belonging to one tribe then further identified by family, any pushtoon woman who is married to non-Pushtoon is pushtoon but her kids don't belong to us,Some Pushtoon has Pushtoon blood but they are raised outside Pushtoonkhwa watan so they can't speak Pashto(cuz of thier sensless parents),infact they are far far away, here, they are Pushtoon by blood and no one can deny this..others are minorities living in Pushtoonkhwa watan, they are non-Pushtoon but living here with us on Pushtoonkhwa watan they speak pashto and even follow all traditions of Pushtoons, now they consider them selves as a Pushtoons.


So in that case the many Khwajas, Gilanis, Shahs, Sayeds, Qureshi Pashtuns who speak Pashto, have lived amongst Pashtuns for centuries, and consider themselves Pashtuns, don't belong to Pashtuns?

What about the sons of bibi Mato and the tribes that decent from her i.e. Suris, Ghilzais, Marwats co. their father was a Turk/Persian Sayyed, who do they belong to?

Genetically, a child is made up of the chromosome of both the father and the mother. Both pass on their genes to the offspring.

The Afghan family tree distinguishs between the Afghans descendents of Qais, and the Pukhtuns, descendents of the adopted son Karlnari.

[lazy daisy]

You added a lot and most of it was crap.

Thanks anyways

and you My Dear, didnt stipulate that any view that may differ to your (perhaps very limited viewpoint) will be judged and discarded and disrespected.


however I will like to add...even if it is to myself, I think there is an element of truth to all that I say above ... you just have to look at it from a different angle...

there is an element at humour that clearly bypassed you but I shall not punish you or even pity your lack of understanding.

Sincerely

Daisy

[MandoKhail]

So in that case the many Khwajas, Gilanis, Shahs, Sayeds, Qureshi Pashtuns who speak Pashto, have lived amongst Pashtuns for centuries, and consider themselves Pashtuns, don't belong to Pashtuns?

What about the sons of bibi Mato and the tribes that decent from her i.e. Suris, Ghilzais, Marwats co. their father was a Turk/Persian Sayyed, who do they belong to?

Genetically, a child is made up of the chromosome of both the father and the mother. Both pass on their genes to the offspring.

The Afghan family tree distinguishs between the Afghans descendents of Qais, and the Pukhtuns, descendents of the adopted son Karlnari.
Technically,Genetically and according to logic pure Pushtoon tribes are those who are coonected to the Pushtoon tree, all others who are living with us from centuries are sons of Pushtoonkhwa watan and now considered as a Pushtoon cuz they have lost thier original identity,

Marwat,Ghilzies,suri are the sons of BITAN, Third son of Qais..Family tree goes further from father side, not from mother side like LAZY DAISY has indicated regarding punjabi...

[Turyalay]

and you My Dear, didnt stipulate that any view that may differ to your (perhaps very limited viewpoint) will be judged and discarded and disrespected.


however I will like to add...even if it is to myself, I think there is an element of truth to all that I say above ... you just have to look at it from a different angle...

there is an element at humour that clearly bypassed you but I shall not punish you or even pity your lack of understanding.

Sincerely

Daisy


Its not that I didn't get your sarcasm, I just found it distasteful.

Ciao!

[Turyalay]

Technically,Genetically and according to logic pure Pushtoon tribes are those who are coonected to the Pushtoon tree, all others who are living with us from centuries are sons of Pushtoonkhwa watan and now considered as a Pushtoon cuz they have lost thier original identity,

Marwat,Ghilzies,suri are the sons of BITAN, Third son of Qais..Family tree goes further from father side, not from mother side like LAZY DAISY has indicated regarding punjabi...

Baitan had only one daughter Bibi Mato, she was married to Shah Hussian, who was a Persian/Turk Sayyed. From there all these tribes descend.

According to the same tree, Karlanri was adopted - surprisingly the father of the hardcore major Pukhtun tribes was adopted yet tribes who have politically associated with the Persian, and most likely connected by heritage to them as well, are the real deal. (I smell politics!) who also happened to be the ones sold to the British for 100 years in bondage.

So the question arises, who is an Afghan and who is a Pukhtun based on that tree alone?

Now wait, before you call me a mischief maker, I’m only pointing out the obvious.

The point here is that, Pukhtun/Afghan is an ethno-linguist group, not a race. So back to the question at hand, based on the mention traits along can these offspring be considered Pukhtuns?

[MandoKhail]

Baitan had only one daughter Bibi Mato, she was married to Shah Hussian, who was a Persian/Turk Sayyed. From there all these tribes descend.

According to the same tree, Karlanri was adopted - surprisingly the father of the hardcore major Pukhtun tribes was adopted yet tribes who have politically associated with the Persian, and most likely connected by heritage to them as well, are the real deal. (I smell politics!) who also happened to be the ones sold to the British for 100 years in bondage.

So the question arises, who is an Afghan and who is a Pukhtun based on that tree alone?

Now wait, before you call me a mischief maker, I’m only pointing out the obvious.

The point here is that, Pukhtun/Afghan is an ethno-linguist group, not a race. So back to the question at hand, based on the mention traits along can these offspring be considered Pukhtuns?

I don't know about your source but i have this information for you.

Bitan got 9 sons

Bhitanni
Ghalji
Lodi
Niazi
Sur
Marwat
Daulat Khel
Babar
Dotani.

Dear if you write about your source of information plz?

[Turyalay]

http://www.khyber.org/pashtoplaces/lakkimarwat2.shtml

This is common knowledge amongst these tribes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherwani_(tribe)

[Turyalay]

According to this Betan did have two sons, one was likely adopted. However it still mentions the originator of the Ghilzai , Lodhi and Suri as Bibi Mato.

http://www.khyber.org/pashtotribes/b/betani.shtml

[MandoKhail]

There is a big contradiction b/w these two. the one i have and the one written in that website..Lets keep this thread going with authentical refrences...

to be continued

[Turyalay]

Don't worry about it, when discussed in detail the whole family tree has some what truth and the rest is politically motivated.

There is a reason why Pukhtuns have different ideas about their forefathers, because that is the truth. They come from different forefathers . jews, persians, sayyeds, turks, rajputs and before that many more huns, sakas, aryans co.

[lazy daisy]

Its not that I didn't get your sarcasm, I just found it distasteful.

Ciao!

if you thought that was Sarcasm... you know very little about the word

but worry ye not, for your auntie Daisy can tell you all about it

[MandoKhail]

There is a reason why Pukhtuns have different ideas about their forefathers, because that is the truth. They come from different forefathers . jews, persians, sayyeds, turks, rajputs and before that many more huns, sakas, aryans co.
Are you sure as you are passing such remarks? Do you have any authentic source where all scholars have consent on it and they have agreed on it?

[Naeem]

Are you sure as you are passing such remarks? Do you have any authentic source where all scholars have consent on it and they have agreed on it?

Turyalai! Don't mind i am little bit confused about your ethnicity.

The genealogy on which you are basing Pashtun identity was compiled by Niamatullah Harvi a scribe at Mughal court in the book "Makhzan-i-Afghani" upon orders from Khan Jahan Lhodi, who was a prominent Pashtun in the court of Shah Jahan and a military leader in Mughal army. According to Niamatullah Harvi, three Pashtun notables, Hamza Khan Tokhi, Zarif Khan Yousafzai, and another of whom I don't remeber the name were sent to Pukhtunkhwa where informatoin was collected and after that the geneologies were constructed.

So Makhzan-i-Afghani is the original source of the geneology copied by other sources including Olaf Cairo (The Pathan).

According to the geneology, the Matozais, the offsprings of Bibi Mato, a Pashtun woman and a Turk/Persian prince are not the original Afghans. And so are the Karlanris (i.e. Wazirs, Mahsuds, Bangash, Zadran, Wardak, etc.) who are the offspring of the adopted son of Urnar. Same is the case with other tribes like Shairanis, Mashwanis, etc.

So according to the very geneology Madokhel is basing his claim on, Pashtun is not one pure race descended from a single ancestor but rather an amalgamation of people from different ancient races fuced together into a single Pashtun nation by the historical process. Same is the opinion of modern scholars who have based their claim on anthropological, archeological, linguistic, and historical research. In near future, this may also be corraborated by genetic evidence.

[Naeem]

Are you sure as you are passing such remarks? Do you have any authentic source where all scholars have consent on it and they have agreed on it?

Moreover, what do you think about "Sher Ali Bacha", who was a descendent of Syed Ali Tirmizi commonly known as Pir Baba? Pir Baba was an Uzbek.
Thus according to your defintion, Sher Ali Bacah is not a Pashtun.

[MandoKhail]

The genealogy on which you are basing Pashtun identity was compiled by Niamatullah Harvi a scribe at Mughal court in the book "Makhzan-i-Afghani" upon orders from Khan Jahan Lhodi, who was a prominent Pashtun in the court of Shah Jahan and a military leader in Mughal army. According to Niamatullah Harvi, three Pashtun notables, Hamza Khan Tokhi, Zarif Khan Yousafzai, and another of whom I don't remeber the name were sent to Pukhtunkhwa where informatoin was collected and after that the geneologies were constructed.

So Makhzan-i-Afghani is the original source of the geneology copied by other sources including Olaf Cairo (The Pathan).

According to the geneology, the Matozais, the offsprings of Bibi Mato, a Pashtun woman and a Turk/Persian prince are not the original Afghans. And so are the Karlanris (i.e. Wazirs, Mahsuds, Bangash, Zadran, Wardak, etc.) who are the offspring of the adopted son of Urnar. Same is the case with other tribes like Shairanis, Mashwanis, etc.

So according to the very geneology Madokhel is basing his claim on, Pashtun is not one pure race descended from a single ancestor but rather an amalgamation of people from different ancient races fuced together into a single Pashtun nation by the historical process. Same is the opinion of modern scholars who have based their claim on anthropological, archeological, linguistic, and historical research. In near future, this may also be corraborated by genetic evidence.
Modern scholars like?if you write thier names plz.

Which book is/are the authentic one for geneology of Pushtoons?

i know some here if got a chance to meet/talk to them then i may ask them question about this topic.

[Naeem]

Modern scholars like?if you write thier names plz.

Which book is/are the authentic one for geneology of Pushtoons?

i know some here if got a chance to meet/talk to them then i may ask them question about this topic.

Modern scholars mean those whose studies are based on proper research instead of myths. Morgensterne, Gagovsky etc. are examples of such scholars.

[MandoKhail]

Modern scholars mean those whose studies are based on proper research instead of myths. Morgensterne, Gagovsky etc. are examples of such scholars.
Any book name written by them on Pushtoons geneology plz?

[Naeem]

Gangovski authored a book "The Nationalities of Pakistan" in which he gives a scientific description of the formation of various nationalities in Pakistan including Pashtuns. Morgensterine was a linguist who worked on Pashto language and whose research establshed that Pashto is an East Iranian language derived from some Saka dialect. I read one of his books in Pashto Academy but don't rember its name. Olaf Cairo wrote "The Pathans" in which he held the same modernist view about Pashtun origin. There are a number of other scholars e.g. Bahadar Shah Zafar Kakakhel etc. who arrived the same conclusion.

But you didn't answer my question i.e. do you consider Sher Ali Bacha a Pashtun?